The Messiah — Theosophy’s view

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Nov 20, 2011.

  1. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    Whereas Jesus reportedly said, "And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna."

    Whereas Jesus reportedly said, "... and a hair out of your head shall not perish; in your patience possess ye your souls."

    Whereas I find enlightenment to be a type of living. I know: I'm just not your guru. :)

    Which you demonstrate by hoisting your freedom flag and proclaiming yourself to be God.
     
  2. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Why would you fear anything? It is humorous to me that Christians just accept the order to fear "God". Do you really want to live as a slave for all eternity? Where is the reward here? It just shows your fear of death...

    This is an example of the stupidity in the Bible... look in any grave, and the only thing you'll find is a pile of bones.

    Then you disagree with the dictionary.

    This is the true way of eternal life, to know you are one with That. Jesus says the same thing though, "I and my father are one". Apparently it is fine if you accept the statement, but wrong when you do not?

    In reality, both are statements of enlightenment.
     
  3. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Also, how does the soul survive Theosis? This is a topic variously named, but that speaks of a merging with God in the Catholic and Orthodox texts. One of the Church Fathers has famously said "God has become man so that man can become God", again I ask whether the soul survives this? For me, this is merely the drop falling back into the ocean, so while the soul is not lost, it is no more distinct - you cannot locate that drop again and bring it back out.

    I simply say you needn't wait for the death of the body, that it can happen this moment if you allow it. Perhaps this doesn't appeal to all, maybe you are too much caught up in your dreaming to be awoken, it is perfectly good. I for one consider separation hell, and the deeper the merging with the divine, the deeper is the bliss.

    Note that God is still one, thus we cannot all become individual gods. Enlightenment is merely the realization that you never were separate in the first place... that all distinction was merely an illusion.
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    It's not all about bliss.
     
  5. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Bliss is the reward for going home.
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Like The Thinker who sits atop the door panels on Rodin's The Gates of Hell?"
     
  7. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    All in the way you read it. Why do you fear your dad so much you don't talk to him... why do you fear someone telling you what to do?

    Why is it, that is all you see.

    A book is your guru? :D

    Then why don't you go and be 'one' with your parents, and set them free in the manner that you demand your freedom? Go get a job. Fulfill the orders of someone. Your mom, working at Walmart, paying your rent, your food, your electricity, your water... I'm sure she takes orders all day. If you insist on being a free spirit, at one with yourself, then set her free from you. Stop insisting that others do the work for you. You are plenty old, and plenty capable of working. As it stands, you fail to be one with anyone that I have personally known... at your age, living off of your parents, demanding that they do what you hate to do: work, taking orders, is exactly the opposite of being 'one' with someone. What you blatently prefer to live is called a double standard... a duality.
     
  8. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I talked to him a few days ago, actually.

    I do not fear anyone telling me what to do, I simply do not permit it.

    It is because matter necessarily deteriorates over time.

    Which is why the quote from the Bible is idiotic, it goes against science saying that hair on your head will be saved... what value does the body even have ultimately? It is naught but a vehicle to interact with this place.

    No, existence is the only True Guru, although it points me to particular books that I might learn from them something which it deems necessary for me to acquire - for this I am always grateful.

    You have merely listed a series of expectations, societal beliefs for how one should live. I am blessed to have parents that are willing to permit me to pursue the essence of my being, but do you think that is by fluke? Perhaps this situation has been created outside my own control simply to create an environment where my enlightenment was possible? Nothing you list will permit a person the time to become enlightened, it is an arduous pursuit that requires utter totality - for perhaps 2 years, it was my single minded pursuit, rummaging scriptures and wandering the internet all to discover the truth of what some 85% of all humans seem obsessed with: religion. I came to know that truth for myself, I was shown the way home.

    Where you have utterly missed though is the very nature of duality. If all is one, it means existence itself has done everything in its power to ensure I reach enlightenment, which certainly seems the case to me - everything was arranged, I simply had to walk the path. In contrast, you apply duality to the superficial crap that people become obsessed about... I could die tomorrow and leave this place laughing. You are so utterly attached to this place you are trying to convince me to partake in its nonsense like it is something worthwhile, you are only taught these things so that your government can become stronger - free individuals do not help the economy much.

    For you, money and luxury has become your God, you talk much about family, but you have admitted you see them maybe 10 days a month - this is the path you have chosen. Do not talk to me about responsibility to family when you cannot even exercise the most fundamental: love. You will say that working your hours, never being home because you are supporting them, is your way of loving them. Your children do not even know you, just watch their body language - they want to reach out but do not know how, and you seem awkward with them too so you make it impossible.

    This is why I have said you should bring people on board to wander the world fixing planes, they might not have a family but yours seems to be to be almost falling apart. You need to rebuild those relationships because before you know it your children will be heading off to college and it will be too late.
     
  9. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    Good for you! 10+ years was too long to go without talking to him.

    Yet, you do tell others what to do. :)

    So you say, and wish to believe.

    Heil Webster.

    False: I was merely listing a path for you to stop living by a double standard, to be 'one' with your parents. Either stop demanding your dependence on others, or stop demanding your independence from others. Either become independent of others, or start becoming dependable to others. I believe you have been ignoring the golden rule.

    It is your choice to be lazy, to smoke, to drink, and do drugs, and it is their willingness to permit it at their house. I personally don't see a blessing there.

    I am honored that you believe my children will seek further education. That is for them to choose. Do you believe your relationship with your parents will die... if you move away?
     
  10. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Again you fail to comprehend non-duality... you are dictating one of two extremes, and yet there is something else: interdependence. This is the case no matter our efforts one way or the other. Both dependence and independence are merely illusions. You can freely choose to fly across the country at a whim that is in a way independent, yet in another way you are dependent on the weather not making it impossible to fly - thus the case is both...

    You view things things as negatives, whether they are valid or not is irrelevant. Why do you feel you are in a position to judge another? Do you find yourself to be superior? In your world view, there are clear lines between good and evil, yet this is another duality.

    How many indigenous peoples the world over have used substances for mystical experiences? All substances give there own flavor and hint towards the divine, nothing here is not divine, it cannot be so because that is all there is.

    As for being lazy, what is there to do? I am comfortable in my own skin, I do not need activities to feel fulfilled. Do you feel Jesus was not lazy? He lived the life of a bum, he begged and took money from his disciples Mary and Joseph of Arimathia - it is curious their names align with that of his parents, although we are told they are from far away.

    This is not what I mean, your children will certainly call weekly or biweekly or whatever else, they will probably feel obligated to do so on a particular schedule. I am suggesting you have no relationship with them as it stands... even when you are home your wife is whisking them off all over the place. When they come to talk to you, it is not a pleasant experience, they feel awkward. That is not how it should be...

    As for your question, I would expect it to be very limited between myself and my folks when I move, I do not cling to them now so how much less when we do not live together?
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    The Cosmos, and everything in it, was created for Theosis.

    The problem for you is you're now going to make statements about a part of a jigsaw, if you will, whilst you have no idea of the overall image.

    Yes. By becoming man, God opens the way for hum,an nature to transcend itself and become one with the Transcendent. The point is man cannot transcend himself by musclepower, or technique, or trick ... only by invitation.

    This is an oft-used analogy, but it assumes too much on the lips of the unwary.

    The 'problem' with the analogy is that the drop ceases to exist in the ocean, it is as it were extinguished, whereas the soul does not cease to exist in God. The ocean is not made up of countless drops, nor can you extract the drop once it is in the ocean, nor can the drop identify itself as a drop.

    Quite ... but then that highlights the limitation of the 'drop in the ocean' analogy, because, if you have experienced such ... who, what and how 'came back' as it were to this world, the entity having entered the ocean having ceased to exist?

    Theosis, by the way, is not an individual condition, it is an eschatalogical finality, which will not be realised, in its fulness, until the end of time. Theosis is the deification of the cosmos, not of the individual.

    Christianity is not, as Plotinus was to say, 'the flight of the alone to the Alone' — that is not what Christianity is about. The personal quest goes on within it, but the true Christian seeks the realisation of 'all in all', not 'all in me'.

    So I rather dispense with the drop/ocean analogy as being incomplete in relation to the Mystery of God in Christ ... the greater mystery is that the soul is open to the infinite, not as a speculative notion, but as an ontological way of being, and as such participates in the Infinite because, in its own ground of being, it is infinite ...

    ... the City of God or the 'many mansions' (cf John 14;2) is not a place the deified soul inhabits, rather it is the union of souls, each its own viewpoint, each its own creation, by, through, in and with God.

    To experience bliss is to experience something, and certainly something profound and wonderful, but it points to a greater mystery, the Mystery of God, for God is not a thing that can be experienced (cf 1 Corinthians 3:2).

    There's the rub ... is it an illusion, or is it a reason, a purpose?

    We're back to the old neo-gnostic notion of fleeing the world to arrive at some other, spirit realm ... that's not how it works. Seeing the materiality of the world, and the physicality of the person, as an illusion, is part of the problem, not the solution.

    The solution is in the world, not apart from it.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  12. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    You have a duality: What you do for others, and what you demand, expect, and ask others to do for you. As you preach of eliminating duality, the be one with others, there is your duality to eliminate.

    Addictions are the other side of your coin: as you refuse to serve others, you are instead serving a full range of addictions.
     
  13. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    I'd say you were better off with the water analogy, but to say: God is able to separate every single drop that has ever fallen into an ocean. The hairs that have grown and fallen from every head since the beginning of hair, are still numbered. While that may seem pompous and absent of proof, if you have seen that God can see the history that people can no longer see, then you know it is true.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    It still problematic to me. It has certain sentimental appeal, and a use, but if one's getting into theology generally, and Christology specifically, then I find the analogy wanting.

    Ocean and drop are both water ... so the ocean/analogy is a discreet extension of the error of modalism, because the logic is that the ocean is just an accumulation of drops, or the drop just an isolated bit of the ocean.

    So you end up, by this analogy, arguing that everyone is a 'bit of God' that realises itself when consciously reunited with the 'whole of God' ... which is a nonsense.

    God and man are different substances, natures, beings, and furthermore God is neither a substance, nor a nature, nor a being, as we understand substances, natures and beings to be ... so I can see the analogy working on a cosmological level, a human spiritual (that is psychic) level, and many experience it thus ... it is blissful, but it is not divine.

    From the Hymn of Colossians one can argue that in Christ, the Logos of God, exists the logoi of every single thing in creation, down to the meanest nano-particle, as an idea, a knowing, a possibility-of-being if you like, of everything that ever was, is, will be or can be (and cannot be)...

    All these logoi, in the Logos, exist (not actually or subsistently, but as a potentiality) in a single relation to the Logos (as source and cause) and, by virtue of that prior relation, in unity with each other...

    ... then I might agree that identification with the Logos, or rather the Logos' disclosure of Itself in the soul, will entail a sense of being one with all as the Logos is one with all, but that one with all is not mine nor inherent to my nature, but rather is my participation in the Divine Life of the Logos.

    The point is that once in the ocean, the drop no longer exists as an act or being, it has been subsumed by the ocean. That is not what Christology is about.

    Many, for example, insist on the inherent duality of having the human person of Jeshua being 'Christed' by God ... the question then is, is Jesus Christ a split personality? Does the divine Christedness argue over possession of the body? Or has the human person of Jeshua been extinguished by being 'Christed', or subsumed, or in some other way put aside or into storage whilst the Godman goes about His business?

    No ... that was refuted from the very beginning, but that is another theological error that the ocean/drop analogy logically tends towards.

    If one offered the analogy of being the drop, and being the ocean, at the same time, then I might be inclined to agree ... but there is still the Christological dimension, beyond the ocean's horizon, that has yet to be experienced or explored.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  15. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    All of creation is the "body of Christ?" (logos?) It makes more sense than the ocean analogy in the differentiation of things. That would go a long ways to explain "eating Christ's flesh" and "drinking his blood" in that we continue to exist in (and eat and drink from) the material realm!

    Would that make the Logos pantheism, whereas "the father and the son" panentheism? The panentheism part might fit the ocean analogy, or it might not, with the "let dry land appear" part representing the logos/material realm. {Separation of darkness from light came first, however.}
    <edit to add>
    Darkness was on the face of the watery deep--the waters came before even the creation of diffused light, much less light separated from darkness.
     
  16. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    You have no idea what is meant by non-duality... your comprehension is just a peripheral stupidity. I am not talking about a oneness in relation to others, I am talking about not perceiving of others at all. Now, whatsoever happens is the work of existence itself, it is not that others do for me and I do for others, it is existence cooperating with itself.

    On the surface, there is much plurality, I am not talking about this petty nonsense. You go on talking about the egg shell, I am trying to convey the yoke but we cannot even meet in the egg white because you are too much obsessed with painting the shell.
     
  17. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    SG -- This is pretty much the view of some process theologians. The Kosmos (everything material and mental) is the Logos (pretty pantheistic). Add in the eternal and beyond to ge to G!d (pretty panentheistic). The indivdual interpretations are all daat'si (yes and no and probable).

    Thomas -- kind of a philosopher's extension to tradition, blending in Schuoun and Guenon.
     
  18. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I can accept this, but do you think it is not the actual state of all things already? Do you think Theosis is a happening, or merely a remembering of what you already were?

    Inaccurate, I use pieces from various jigsaws because you are familiar with them, but what I convey is not a jigsaw at all, it is the original painting.

    I disagree, it is mans natural state, we have only forgotten. There are techniques which allow us to remember what we have forgotten, but our very birth is the invitation, the very fact we exist is an invitation to discover the nature of existence - and the Transcendent is exactly that nature.

    No, the problem with the analogy is that the drop doesn't actually exist separate from the ocean at all in the first place. It is better to call the soul a wave but then it seems too significant, this is why people call it the drop - it expresses more effectively how puny the soul is. It is as a ripple in the divine, but without the divine it is not possible at all. Has the wave been lost when it returns to the ocean? No, only its momentum has ceased as something distinct, yet it was the ocean before the momentum started too.

    I have never left the ocean, I have only returned to duality because it makes interaction easier. Always I am in remembrance now of what I am, but if you cannot tell where you end and the oven begins, cooking a meal is troublesome.

    This is a nonsense, there will be no end of time as you intend, because in that state time does not exist. Time is a perception of the mind, and what I speak about is a transcending of mind. At the same time, in this is exactly an end of time, time is no longer perceived, so in a way you are correct as well.

    It is an individual searching, but when you find you realize what is meant by "all in all", you understand what Jesus means by saying we are all as different organs of the one body. If "me" is retained as before the realization, you have missed. You are not there when the all "comes in", you are the all inside all.

    I simply say the soul is the Holy Spirit too much in love with its current identity - what I call the ego. It is the part of God that is within each living thing as the Bible tells us, yet it is this identification with the body which separates outer and inner - the whole is the divine, but we all want to make something of this puny existence instead of realizing it is a gift to play with.

    In a way I agree here, we are all unique expressions, and that expression will not be lost. Then, consider different viewpoints of the human mind, they can all exist together, and yet they all emanate from one brain. Your analogy seems to say that either God has lost some of himself in giving us life, or that God gains something when we return - God is unchanging though. We have never left, we are as an idea God is curious about, and so we manifest as a character in a dream to experience the idea - yet we don't actually exist as something individual, just as characters in a dream do you exist except in your head.

    Indeed, I have experienced 3-5 seconds of an encounter that lasted more than 6 hours, I understand fully well that God cannot be experienced, that what I recognize as the experience was merely an attempt of my mind to make sense of what has happened. It is certainly only a pointer, albeit a very profound one.

    We can say that it is for us to realize our own nature again, it seems to be a fascination for the divine to realize himself repeatedly in different ways. It is certainly an illusion though, we already are the divine, we have always been searching for ourselves.

    In (roughly) the words of St Francis of Assasi "eventually you realize that the one you were searching for is the one who has been doing the searching." It is all as a grand game of Hide and Seek, only you are hiding from yourself and looking for yourself... it is a strange thing that throughout time we have been obsessed with this topic, and yet it is a very simply thing. You have spent your whole life developing this character you see in the mirror, but eventually something clicks "there has to be more", and that is when the true seeking starts... one day you realize you have been doing an absurd thing, searching high and low for what has never been lost - you simply forgot where you put it.

    You have jumped to a biased assumption, I am absolutely against people that flee the world because for one it is not even possible. You have merely been unable to maintain your bliss in the market so you have ran from it, it is a very cheap bliss if it can be so easily broken. For another, what will you find in the caves that is not present in the market? You have not ran from the world, you have ran from people, and each person is an expression of the divine. For me, it is all a very idiotic exercise...

    That said, Jesus has not lived in the market, he has been a wanderer, a dervish to use the words of the Sufi's. He was almost certainly an Essene based on his life style, and John the Baptist seems to have been one as well.
     
  19. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    SG,
     
    You said,
     
    "All of creation is the "body of Christ?" (logos?)"
     
    --> Yes this is how I see it. According to my belief system, ‘Christ’ refers to the entire universe, not an individual human being.
     
    "It makes more sense than the ocean analogy in the differentiation of things."
     
    --> The ocean analogy refers to a pre-cosmic ‘material’ that our universe was created from. Both the Virgin Mary in Catholicism and Guanyin in Buddhism symbolize this ‘material. In addition, Mary holds a baby (a new ‘birth’ of a new universe) and Guanyin hold a vase of water (ocean symbology), both symbolizing the same new universe that has just been ‘born.’
     
    "That would go a long ways to explain "eating Christ's flesh" and "drinking his blood" in that we continue to exist in (and eat and drink from) the material realm!"
     
    --> I have never heard of this interpretation of these symbols in this way, but it makes sense.
     
    "…"let dry land appear" part representing the logos/material realm. {Separation of darkness from light came first, however.}"
     
    --> Another good way of looking at it: "let dry land appear" meaning the appearance of a new universe.
     
    "Darkness was on the face of the watery deep--the waters came before even the creation of diffused light, much less light separated from darkness."
     
    --> Yes, that’s how I see it, with the darkness symbolizing the First Logos and the Light symbolizing the Third Logos (our present universe). The ‘water’ (the Second Logos) exists even during the period of time between universes, whereas the Light does not (the Light is the universe, so of course it disappears with the ending of a universe and reappears with the emergence of the next universe).
     
  20. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    I guess, in Christian terms, they are called "Mendicant Friars", but essentially it is the same as a dervish... this explains his statements against wealth, and also his lack of bride, also many of his statements against the establishment...
     

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