Something Bad Jesus Did

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Ben Masada, Jan 31, 2012.

  1. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Why does it matter so much whether you state it positively or negatively? If you're not doing something, you're still doing something. You're simply doing something else. If you're not busy, then you're either idle and thinking, sleeping or lying in the grave rotting away. Even if your entire body were to cease to exist, by staying out of the dramas of the universe, you're still contributing in your absence. That is something you're doing.

    It's really just a linguistic construct. It just depends on which way you're looking at it.

    If A = opposite of B then B = opposite of A

    The world will never be able to solve the problem that is Israel. Only the messiah can solve that problem, which is why he must come. The messiah will resolve all the confusion. In addition, anyone who claims he is the messiah and does not resolve all the confusion is a false messiah.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Nah, the same arrogance is there. Who are you to assume that they would not want done unto them what you would not want done unto you?

    While I don't eat meat, as my choice, should I not serve meat to others as their choice?

    I may be allergic to nuts, but my friend loves peanut brittle, should I not give it to him as a gift?
     
  3. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    And I'll sign to that one.
    Ben
     
  4. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Did Jesus solve the problem you claim is Israel? No, he rather complicated it farther. Does it mean you agree that Jesus was a false Messiah? That would be the conclusion if you reasoned about your own words. Besides, Israel is not the problem. The problem is what the world make of Israel. No wonder Hitler thought he had come to the final solution for the Jewish problem. Today he and all under him are gone while Israel remains stronger than never.
    Ben
     
  5. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Let us not forget the context in which I said that. I was talking about the "confusion" in today's Middle Eastern politics regarding Israel. It's also not just any kind of "confusion," but confusion that involves violence and bloodshed. Many of the organisations meddling in Israeli and Middle Eastern politics are armed with weapons that can kill. Whether it's the Americans, the Zionists, the British or the Israeli Defence Force, they're all in the business of violence.

    The point made by Jesus, Chabad/Schneerson and those Orthodox Jews protesting against Zionism and the state of Israel is that the "messiah" doesn't need violence, a nation state, a national government or a national army to achieve his goals. I think we have seen how, in the last 50 or more years that violence and military posturing have not solved the problem of "Israel" and that violence and military posturing only leads to more "confusion." Those Orthodox rabbis who opposed Zionism from the very start had a good point.

    Why Orthodox Jews are Opposed to the Zionist State

    I think there is a good reason why the messiah won't need violence or an army to achieve his goals. Consider the presence of 2.2 billion Christians and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today. Consider what Maimonides said about Christianity and Islam:

    Consider that many of the things in Christian and Islamic tradition have their roots in Judaism. When the messiah comes, he may not even need to fight a war. All he may need to do is tell those 2.2 billion Christians and 1.5 billion Muslims to discover the Jewish roots in their traditions and all wars will end. National governments with be abolished. National armies will be disbanded. This is when a new era will begin.

    The Zionists, Illuminatis, fundamentalist terrorists and others who believe in violence are likely to be led astray by "false messiahs" when the "great war" begins as prophesied in Zionist, Christian and Islamic tradition. Each will have its own ideology, but the fundamental flaw in their ideology is their belief that violence is necessary in achieving their goals. These "false messiahs" will simply create more "confusion" or allow the existing "confusion" to persist. They will fail to eliminate the confusion because violence only leads to more violence.

    The "true messiah" will establish the messianic kingdom with a bloodless coup. He will be able to persuade the 2.2 billion Christians and 1.5 billion Muslims to embrace their roots. The messiah will probably send rabbis to the billions of non-Jews in the world to spread his message. When this happens, there will be a massive sociological and political movement throughout the world. Massive social and political changes will be made without governments or armies.
     
  6. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    It seems like you are associating with the physical thing rather than the manner or the intention, and then you call that the arrogance of the golden rule. As in: give the thing that you would have others give to you, rather than: giving to others in the manner that you would have others giving to you. Another approach is to replace that 'thing' with something like a confession or a choice. Give a choice. Give a confession. Give some love.


    Then there is that negated version: 'don't do'. In my opinion, the adherent misses the boat with those manners of love, patience, faith, honesty, confession, charity, etc... which takes some self directed 'doing'.
     
  7. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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  8. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Ben try Mishneh Torah, Hilkhot Melakhim 11:10–12. It is one of Miamonides' rather more famous remarks.

    You and Saltmeister are using the term "Messiah" quite differently. He in his Christian mind-set, you in your Jewish one.

    What does "Annointed" really mean (over and above both conflicting, unreconcilable definitions)? "He or she who will come chosen by the divine". So there would be lots of Messiahs.
     
  9. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    I have read the whole of the Mishneh Torah of Maimonides, but I'll check it out again. I am not familiar with that text. I'll be back to you soon.
    Ben
     
  10. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    You might be right. Anointed means Maschiach in Hebrew and Christ in Greek. A king is an anointed, so is a prophet, and so is the People of Israel, according to Habakkuk 3:13, as it goes thus: "Thou have come forth to save Thy People, Thy anointed one." An anointed one can also be a person with a special mission, even if he is not Jewish, as in the case of Cyrus. (Isa. 45:1) But the Messiah per se, there were two in the History of Israel. Israel, the Ten Tribes aka Messiah ben Joseph and Judah, the Jewish People aka Messiah ben David. Messiah ben Joseph is gone as it was sacrificed for the sins of Judah, (Isa. 53:11,12) and Messiah ben David remains as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37)
    Ben
     
  11. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    So, do as I do. "Annointed" for both (and more, the Madhi would be in this group). "Christ" for the "Christian Messiah". And leave "Messiah" for the Maschiach.

    That way you do not talk past each other.
     
  12. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    You are mistaken. I did not claim that Jesus was "messiah" and nor did I say I "believed" he was "messiah." I have not done that for at least 12 months, perhaps even longer. Can you present evidence for such a claim or belief? If not, you have no business in making the above statement.

    Quite obviously, Judaism and "Christianity" have different definitions of "messiah." Because there are so many different definitions of "messiah," it becomes practically pointless to use the same word and try to impart the same meaning to it. Jewish messiah, Christian messiah, Muslim messiah, Davidic messiah, priestly messiah, Essenic messiah, individual messiah, collective messiah -- the word becomes meaningless in a discussion when people go into it with a different definition.

    To say that one "believes" that Jesus is "messiah" is meaningless. Because the Jewish and Christian concepts are different, neither is right or wrong. To say that one "believes" Jesus was "messiah" does not make him more or less of what he is. He cannot be "more," because Jews don't accept him as messiah. He also cannot be "less," because he at least conforms to the "conventional Christian" definition. Because he is neither more or less after the "belief" is affirmed, the affirmation of such a belief changes nothing. The claim that Jesus is "messiah" is an anachronism. It refers to something he said or did 2,000 years ago, not to something that will happen in the future. Because the claim refers to something in the past, not to the future it means nothing today.

    The problem, however is that you assumed that I was talking about the "conventional" Christian concept of messiah and yet you don't even ascribe to the concept of messiah I commonly hear from Jews. You talk about a collective messiah rather than an individual one.

    I said nothing about Jesus being the messiah, only that whoever establishes the messianic kingdom will not need a national army, national government or nation state. Religious tradition, not armies or governments will be the basis by which the messiah establishes the new regime. Jews will not part from their Torah, Muslims will not part from their Quran and Christians will not part from their NT. The messiah will show that the three can be sociologically linked without compromising tradition. He will take advantage of the existence of two religions that have Judaism as their roots and he will give them "new instructions." He will offer a new "hermeneutic." This is how he will achieve his aims without violence.

    Jesus is not necessary. Occam's Razor.

    Plagiarism or not, they still have Jewish tradition as their roots. Plagiarism actually implies roots. Many of Islam's laws have their basis in Jewish Law. Many of Jesus' teachings have their basis in Jewish tradition.

    The future of the Jewish people may not rest in the Israeli Defence Force, but in the billions of people who follow religions that have Judaism as their root. To believe that the IDF is the future of the Jewish people is to believe in violence. To believe that the billions of Christians and Muslims are the key to the future of the Jewish people is to believe in a more peaceful solution. This is the purpose of interfaith discussions.

    Who exactly do you mean by "we?" Do you mean the Israeli Defence Force and their military doctrine? Do you represent the Israeli Defence Force?

    Did you not read the link I posted?

    Why Orthodox Jews are Opposed to the Zionist State

    There is no need to fight when there are other alternatives or options. The future of the Jewish people may not depend on the Israeli Defence Force. There is another force out there -- a sociological, rather than a military one.
     
  13. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Ben Masada is mistaken. I did not claim Jesus was messiah or even say that I believed he was "messiah." The idea that Jesus was "messiah" is an anachronism whose definition refers to things he said and did 2,000 years ago that are not even properly understood today. Biblical scholars are still trying to figure this out and until they do, there is no business in calling Jesus "messiah." It could be that calling Jesus "messiah" means nothing, especially if it changes nothing. The words may simply be empty.

    I certainly do have my own concept "messiah" but don't confuse this with the conventional definition. People's ideas about a messiah have evolved and we don't necessarily have to base them on the old ones. The Pharisees' idea of the messiah may persist, but only because they were the ones who came up with the idea and survived to keep that idea alive. The Essenes disappeared, so whatever their definition was no longer matters. I could say the same about the Nazarenes. Because the Nazarenes died off, the "Christian messiah" is irrelevant today. All other ideas regarding the messiah are secondary, even my own.
     
  14. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Please investigate and report back to us. It could be one of the things the Catholic Church censored.
     
  15. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I stand corrected.
     
  16. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Jesus was a Jewish individual. And there is no Messiah on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective in Israel, the Jewish People. Rashi thought so, and so did Maimonides. There is a consensus among Christians, and I do subscribe myself to that consensus, that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. Well, Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name if you read Isaiah 41:8,9 and 44:1,2,21. Then, if that's not enough, we can always use logic. The individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? The Messiah cannot die. According to Jeremiah 31:35-37 he is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forerever.
    Ben
     
  17. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    Sorry, Ben, but are you saying that Maimonides did not refer to an individual when he referred to the expected Messiah? If you are saying that, I read him (Maimonides) differently. He gave specific criteria by which the "true," as he saw it, Messiah would be identified, and those criteria, it seems to me, clearly referred to a specific individual.
     
  18. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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  19. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    I live here in Ramat Gan. I went to the public library in Tel Aviv where I had read the Mishneh Torah of Maimonides, but just to be said that they are remodeling the Maimonides Hall, where I have read the works of Josephus and Maimonides. In other words, the Hall will be temporarily closed. I'll keep checking with them from time to time. I will eventually come up with something.
    Ben
     
  20. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    For the time being.
    Ben
     

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