real Islam

Lunitik

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We have called it oxygen, yet for the trees it is carbon dioxide.
We have called it the calorie, for it is what our food consists of.
We have seen it in the stars and the atoms.
We have called it love and light, even sound.
It is that which pervades all of these and far more.
It is all there ever is.
Everything is merely the play of it.
Find it, you will not have to go far.
It is the one from whom the looking arises.
It is even the one who reads about itself in the scriptures.
Yet we go on missing it.
Truly I say it is harder to miss it than to find it.
We simply take it for granted.
It is it which takes itself for granted.
Yet it longs to find itself.
How strange.
 

Abdullah

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I think it's about time i got into the fray :)

what is real Islam?

well look no further for i'm about to reveal all :)

Islam has 73 sects..., all of those are within the folds of Islam and only one of the sects is a hundred percent rightly guided, and that is the ahlus sunnah wal jammah [sunni for short], but i'm afraid to say that kenshins version is totally out of the folds and it will be included with other non muslim sects that use some of the Islamic rhetoric, such as louis farkhans noi, etc,

most of the sects are very tiny, as the two main one's, sunni's and shia's usurp up about 99 percent of the ummah [muslims]

here is the sunni creed that will give one a comprehensive view of their essential beliefs

Aqidah Tahawiyya


and regarding who can be called a believer or muslim, here is a link that will give one a definitive traditional perspective:

Universal Validity of Religions


non-muslims can turn out to be believers in the hereafter, but this applies to only those non-muslims who have not heard about Islam sufficiently to believe, but such people would be put to a test in the hereafter; those who would have believed on recieving a sufficient message, would pass and be saved and those who wouldn't, would fail and suffer the consequences:

the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: Four will present excuses on the Day of Resurrection: The deaf one, the idiot, the senile old man, and the one who died in Fatra (the time between Prophets). The first will say, I didn't hear anything; the second, Islam came and street-children were throwing dung at me; the third, Islam came and I did not have my wits about me, and the fourth: my Lord, no Messenger came to me. Allah will Himself take their covenant to obey Him. They will be told to enter the fire (as a test). Those who obey will find it cool and safe, while those who refuse will be dragged to it. (Aswad, Abu Hurayra)

Al-Bazzar and al-Tirmidhi who graded it hasan narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The one who died in Fatra, the retard, and the infant will say respectively: No Book or Messenger reached me; You gave me no mind wherewith to understand good or evil; I did not have a chance to do anything. A fire will be presented to them and they will be told to enter it. Those who would have done well in life will obey and enter it (temporarily) while those who would have disobeyed in life will refuse. Allah will tell them: You disobey Me (seeing Me), so how could you obey My Messengers in My absence? (Abu Sa`id al-Khudri)

Al-Bazzar and Abu Ya`la narrated tha same as b) with the addition of the senile old man. Those who obey and enter the fire will go across it speedily. (Anas)

`Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn Jarir, Ibn al-Mundhir, Ibn Hatim, with an authentic chain that meets the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim: The Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The one who died in Fatra, the idiot, the deaf, the mute, and the senile will be sent a messenger (at that time) who will say: Enter the fire. They will argue and say: How can it be when no messenger reached us? But woe to them! If they had entered it they would have found it cool and safe. Whoever accepts and obeys will enter it. Abu Hurayra added: Read, We never punish until We send a messenger? (17:15).

Al-Bazzar and al-Hakim, who graded it sahih by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The people of Jahiliyya will come on the Day of Judgment carrying their idols on their backs. Allah will question them and they will say: Our Lord, You did not send us a Messenger and nothing from You reached us. If you had sent us one, we would have been your most obedient servants. Allah will say: Shall I test your obedience? And He will tell them to enter the fire and stay in it. They will enter it and return again, in fear of its fury and exhalations, and they will say: Our Lord, protect us from it. He will say: Didn't you promise to obey Me if I ordered you something? They will pledge again and enter it, only to come back and plead again. The Prophet said: Had they stayed in it the first time, they would have found it cool and safe. (Thawban)

Al-Tabarani and Abu Nu`aym narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The retard will come on the Day of Judgment together with the one who died in fatra and the infant etc. (same as(e)) They will keep coming back although the fire would not have hurt them, and Allah will say: I knew your actions from afore, so take them (O Fire).


http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/sp2-gfh_e.html#4www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/sp2-gfh_e.html#4
 

Lunitik

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Salamo alaikom, Abdullah.

You should have spoken sooner, I have caused the thread to deviate much, for Muhammad never named the religion he perfected, he only says he has perfected religion.

Islam is the nature of all religions the world over, the key to heaven is exactly that: surrender.

I am curious what you feel about the common translation of islam though, do you uphold that it means submit? For me, submission means defeat, it paints it somewhat negatively and for me this understanding is why there are many which engage in war based on the Quran. In this I am in certain agreement with the Ahmediyya movement, one must protect themselves, but one should not engage in violence at all if you can help it.

Also, do you actually believe Islam was intended to be a world religion when it was never even intended to be translated? Surrender is the key to all religion, but many things in the Quran seem to suggest it is a religion only intended for the Arabs, how do you feel about this? I love Muhammad, and many Sufi's through history, but I see Islam as very much painted by tribal particulars. I hope this does not offend, but as is written, all that happens is the will of Allah, I cannot justify it as coincidence that Jesus still has far more followers - although I am not Christian either. Can you share your thoughts on this? Shokran.
 

Lunitik

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In fact, many Christians use the translation as submission to justify their hatred for the Quran as well. Jesus says in a few places in the Bible that a Christian must surrender - he says you must hate your own life, you must give up your will for the will of God, many things like this - yet somehow they manage to make the distinction.

I think this is the root of some others in this thread reacting poorly to Islam, they think somehow it differs from their beliefs - although there is also a fairly large cultural difference, as the statement about his wives shows, despite many in the Bible have multiple wives, thus it being entirely consistent.

These are of course ego based discrimination, considering their morals are higher than Gods, but still it is something I think the Muslim perspective might serve well.
 

Lunitik

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Something else which is ponderous, your link about the Universal Validity of Religions says Islam is final, and yet Muhammad himself has said Jesus and the Mehdi will return. Now, certainly there is nothing new in what they will say just as there is nothing new in what Muhammad says for truth is eternal, but it will surely be different in wording and requirement due to the different audience.

Will Islam not accept them as prophets even if they say they are such? It is my understanding that the prophecies of Dijjal align quite well with Revelation, and both proclaim 1000 years peace after the defeat of Dijjal or Satan - what is your take here?

The Day of Judgement is largely believed to be the end of the world, yet it is also the belief that Allah can have no end, and also it seems the world itself will happily proceed after the return of Mehdi/Qa'im and Jesus... what is your understanding?
 

Abdullah

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donnann

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And regarding lunitiks claim to what is sufism, is really just the non muslim panthiesm which is considered the greatest evil of all in Islam :eek:

he is another victim of so called 'muslims' who have used some Islamic words to support their non-muslim religion :(


here are a few links t the real sufism:


www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/sufitlk.htm

qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=3623

www.sunnah.org/events/hamza/hamza.htm


Peace :)
You know any holy book can be misinterpreted. You have to reason it with a divine mind. I find that a lot of people are reasoning scripture with a carnal mind. In HOLY scripture a beheading for example doesnt mean to literally chop someones head off but rather a changing of the old mind the carnal mind and putting on the divine mind. This is why in catholic churches they have pics of john the baptist holding his own head but with his head in tact. Make sense? Why do muslims , a lot of them, interpret the koran with a carnal mind and commit acts based on that carnal mind and say it came from the holy book? I just dont understand that.
 

donnann

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You know any holy book can be misinterpreted. You have to reason it with a divine mind. I find that a lot of people are reasoning scripture with a carnal mind. In HOLY scripture a beheading for example doesnt mean to literally chop someones head off but rather a changing of the old mind the carnal mind and putting on the divine mind. This is why in catholic churches they have pics of john the baptist holding his own head but with his head in tact. Make sense? Why do muslims , a lot of them, interpret the koran with a carnal mind and commit acts based on that carnal mind and say it came from the holy book? I just dont understand that.
I look at it this way. When reading holy scripture you have to go well god is good , hes love so this phrase or word cannot mean what I think it does it must have an opposite divine meaning a holy meaning.....and thats how you properly reason scripture. Then you dont have evil acts being done and people thinking they are doing it for god when its not what he means to begin with.
 

Abdullah

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Salamo alaikom, Abdullah.

You should have spoken sooner, I have caused the thread to deviate much, for Muhammad never named the religion he perfected, he only says he has perfected religion.

Islam is the nature of all religions the world over, the key to heaven is exactly that: surrender.

I am curious what you feel about the common translation of islam though, do you uphold that it means submit? For me, submission means defeat, it paints it somewhat negatively and for me this understanding is why there are many which engage in war based on the Quran. In this I am in certain agreement with the Ahmediyya movement, one must protect themselves, but one should not engage in violence at all if you can help it.

Also, do you actually believe Islam was intended to be a world religion when it was never even intended to be translated? Surrender is the key to all religion, but many things in the Quran seem to suggest it is a religion only intended for the Arabs, how do you feel about this? I love Muhammad, and many Sufi's through history, but I see Islam as very much painted by tribal particulars. I hope this does not offend, but as is written, all that happens is the will of Allah, I cannot justify it as coincidence that Jesus still has far more followers - although I am not Christian either. Can you share your thoughts on this? Shokran.

Hi lunitik; my apologies for late reply

Islam means complete submission to the will of Allah [swt]; the 'peace' meaning is there too in the root of the word...; thus Islam can mean submission, through which one achieves peace...

who told you Islam never meant to be translated; translations are neccassary for people to understand it in their respective languages

I think you are confusing the non rendition of the Quran to other languages; this is true in that the Quran allways remains Arabic [for that is what Allah revealed and spoke, but yet translations can be done, and the translation are infact not the Quran, but just the rendering of it's basic meaning in other languages

the major scholars [those who preserve the interpretation of Quran and hadith] need to master the Arabic language, but not the rest of the people and it takes only a few masters to disseminate this knowledge to the rest of the people hence this is how Islam as a universal religion is feasible

the rest of the muslims as an absolute neccessity, need to learn only a few Quranic surahs in Arabic to practice Islam and that is not too much to ask of anyone

the majority of the people are christian as majority of people unfortunately like to follow their desires rather than obey Allah and christianity [which is a corruption of a few principles of Jesus [pbuh] and the rest totally man-made] offers them just that; go to church once a week, or you dont even have to do that, drink alcohol and you dont need to follow any rules or laws whatsoever; just live your life the way you want; stay away from the undeniable evils like murder [but dont worry if you dont, for Jesus died for our sins, so you'll be forgiven anyway :rolleyes:] and amidst all the fornication and pubbing and clubbing, just try and strike up that 'personal relationship' with jesus [lie on your bed and talk with him? :rolleyes:]; a very desirous ticket to heaven indeed! :D [respect to all the good christians out there; take this rant with a pinch of salt! ;)]

the Quran says that the majority of people on earth are astray:

Quranic verses like "If you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from the path of Allah" (Quran, 6:116) refer to the non-Muslim majority of mankind.

so the Quran has predicted correctly that most people will be non-muslims

as people have free-will, it is inevitable that some would go astray and form deviant sects, but Allah through His Mercy has kept the overwhelming vast majority of muslims rightly guided
 

Abdullah

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Something else which is ponderous, your link about the Universal Validity of Religions says Islam is final, and yet Muhammad himself has said Jesus and the Mehdi will return. Now, certainly there is nothing new in what they will say just as there is nothing new in what Muhammad says for truth is eternal, but it will surely be different in wording and requirement due to the different audience.

Will Islam not accept them as prophets even if they say they are such? It is my understanding that the prophecies of Dijjal align quite well with Revelation, and both proclaim 1000 years peace after the defeat of Dijjal or Satan - what is your take here?

The Day of Judgement is largely believed to be the end of the world, yet it is also the belief that Allah can have no end, and also it seems the world itself will happily proceed after the return of Mehdi/Qa'im and Jesus... what is your understanding?


Mehdi [as] will be a normal person under who's leadership Muslims will destroy the enemies of Islam once and for all ;)

Jesus [pbuh] is returning as a follower of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] so his position will be just like an ordinary Muslim, while he'd still be a Prophet in his own right; it's sort of like a us president that is no longer in office, is no longer president but under the leadership of the new president, but yet he still retains his title as 'president'


The Mahdi will create the Caliphate/a utopia,, and as utopias go, this is the best it gets, for a Caliphate is based on Gods law, and there can be no better state of peace, security and justice

I think there are hadiths that during the Caliphate of the end times, their will be so much peace that a tiger and man would sit together and the tiger would not pounce on the man [or something of that sort] and a pomegrenate would be so large that many people can eat of it, but such hadiths may be reffering to when every 'evil-doer'/non-Muslim is taken from the world, including the gog and magog, thus there would be only believers remaining, and practicing believers too, hence there would be no [spiritually] polluting the atmosphere by the desbelievers [sorry if I sound a bit insensetive but hope you take this in the spirit of pure intellectual understanding] thus this would possibly be the reason why the world would turn into a utopia like the images we see on Christian mags
smiley-smile.gif
:


Abu Hurairah said, "The Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said, 'The
son of Mary will come down as a just leader. He will break the cross, and
kill the pigs. Peace will prevail and people will use their swords as
sickles. Every harmful beast will be made harmless; the sky will send down rain in abundance, and the earth will bring forth its blessings. A child will play with a fox and not come to any harm; a wolf will graze with
sheep and a lion with cattle, without harming them." (Ahmad)
 

Hermes

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Religion is the "fool's gold" - knowing God is the truth. Putting labels on faiths such as Islam, Christianity and Judaism is for simpletons who are like sheep want to follow someone or something even if its leading them onto a cliff....
Peace be upon you
there are some difficulties in understanding the definition of a religion and Islam is not out of this , I think.
it is said to be a muslim is to bear witness (Shahadatein) to the prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh) and the unity of God.
but there is another usage for the word "Islam"

"Abraham enjoined this] creed [upon his children, and] so did [Jacob,] saying :" My children! Allah has indeed chosen this religion for you; so never die except as Muslim"

we know that Islam, as we understand it, is a special religion. and Abraham and his sons were before prophet Muhammad, so how would Quran claim that they were muslims ?

the answer, as many scholars believe, is that
"Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam" 3:19

God has only one religion and that is nothing else than believing in the truth and following it both practically and theoretically. what we call it today "Islam" is the last emanation of the same truth that all prophet believed in.
it means Christianity and Judaism are also the emanation of the same reality but in earlier times.
 

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WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY'S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:
  • In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the ‘Straight Path’ (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books…
  • In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war…
  • In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times...
  • In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants...
  • In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man’s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut’a)...
  • In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a waiting period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification...
  • In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability...
  • In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death...
  • In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths...
  • In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter ‘Muslim’ must work to attain the status of Faithful ‘Mumin’ (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)...
  • In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence - no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards...
  • In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...
  • In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time…
  • In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases...
  • In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all...
  • In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur'an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.
God Alone | www.free-minds.org
 

Hangan

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A Muslim is one who Submits completely to the Will of God Refering to every Person who truely Believes in God

Our God is One and we Refer to him by the name Allah meaning "The Deity" or "The God"
"Al" Meaning "The" and "Lah" meaning "Deity"/"God"

the Word Islam is rooted from the Word Salam meaning Peace
Our Prophet (Pbuh) was the most perfect among men and a Mercy to mankind
he Taught us to Love each other to follow the way of God and to strive for Perfection
do good and do Charity, and to Respect each other

God is Ar-Raḥmān (The Exceedingly Compassionate, The Exceedingly Beneficent, The Exceedingly Gracious)
God is Ar-Raḥīm (The Exceedingly Merciful)
God is Al-Ġaffār (The Repeatedly Forgiving)

Surah 2:58
And [recall] when We said, "Enter this city and eat from it wherever you will in [ease and] abundance, and enter the gate bowing humbly and say, 'Relieve us of our burdens.' We will [then] forgive your sins for you, and We will increase the doers of good [in goodness and reward]."

Surah 2:52
Then We forgave you after that so perhaps you would be grateful.

Surah 5:48
And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Islam is a Way of life that Preaches Peace and tolerance to respect each other live together in a community and prosper in the presence of God and make the world a happy place

Asalamu Alaikum (may peace be upon you)
 

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Abraham was a Jew, at least thats what I got from reading the Bible. But reading up again seems he was father the the Jewish Nation and possible to the Arab as well, father of many.

Assalam allaikym

The Israelites were the descendants of Jacob/Israel. Jacob had 12 sons, and each of his sons became the leader of a Tribe (of cousins, you might say). These Israelites went to Egypt to escape a famine, but were enslaved by the Egyptians there. Hundreds of years later, Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, and God proved He exists to them all there as one group, and He also designated Moses was His prophet, and the Israelites should listen to him concerning what God would tell them through Moses. God made a Covenant with Israel, and reminded them of the promise He had made to their ancestors concerning giving to them the Holy Land.
When the Israelites entered the Land promised to them by God, the conquered the land and established a kingdom, with Saul as their first king, and David as king after him. David's son, Solomon became king after David, and built a Temple to God on Mount Moriah to house the Ark of the Covenant that had been constructed during the days of Moses. The nation was called 'Israel.' When Solo man died and his son took the throne, the kingdom split into two, the majority (in the northern portion of the kingdom) choosing another man as king, but the southern kingdom sticking with the descendant of David as their king. The southern kingdom also had the Temple that Solo man had built. The northern kingdom followed the gods of the pagans around them and eventually built their own temple on Mount Scopus. The northern kingdom stayed with the name 'Israel', while the southern kingdom, loyal to David's line and to God, chose the name of Judah, because that was the tribe that composed the majority of the Israelites (the 10 northern Tribes of Israel, Judah and Levi remaining in the southern kingdom, since the Levites worked/served in the Temple, there were a large number of Levites in the nation of Judah as well). Since those northern Israelite people did not keep the Covenant with God but followed idolatry, God caused a foreign nation to overrun their nation and scatter the people abroad, most of them never to be heard from again. A small community was left there, however, and intermingled with immigrants. These are the Samaritans. The Samaritans and the descendants of the people who had been scattered around the world were Israelites. But so were the citizens of Judah; they also were Israelites. Since they were descendants of Judah, they also came to be known as 'Jews.' (This title for them appears in the Jewish Bible.)
So, the Samaritans are Israelites. The Jews are Israelites. And the descendants of the 10 lost Tribes are Israelites.

Please tell me how is Abraham a Jew?
 
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Peace be upon you
there are some difficulties in understanding the definition of a religion and Islam is not out of this , I think.
it is said to be a muslim is to bear witness (Shahadatein) to the prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh) and the unity of God.
but there is another usage for the word "Islam"

"Abraham enjoined this] creed [upon his children, and] so did [Jacob,] saying :" My children! Allah has indeed chosen this religion for you; so never die except as Muslim"

we know that Islam, as we understand it, is a special religion. and Abraham and his sons were before prophet Muhammad, so how would Quran claim that they were muslims ?

the answer, as many scholars believe, is that
"Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam" 3:19

God has only one religion and that is nothing else than believing in the truth and following it both practically and theoretically. what we call it today "Islam" is the last emanation of the same truth that all prophet believed in.
it means Christianity and Judaism are also the emanation of the same reality but in earlier times.

I like how you've explained it here and I'd like to add one thing...

A "Muslim" is one who "submits to God" and so Islam is the religion of one who submits to God's will. Do Christians and Jews not do this? What about others who believe in different concepts of God but still live to submit to his will. I would deem all of these "Muslims" in the most fundamental sense of the word.

Did Abraham not submit himself and his life to God? Of course he did.
 
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