Paul, the Cuckoo Bird

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Ben Masada, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Really! So, why do you follow his gospel? According to your posts, I see no difference between your views and his gospel.
    Ben
     
  2. Princely

    Princely Interfaith Forums

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    I never have quoted Paul or backed anything he taught. Perhaps you confuse me with someone else.
     
  3. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    Hi Ben,

    Thank you for the brief excursus into Replacement Theology you provided. It was somewhat informative, but highly flawed. At any rate, I found this bit amusing:



    Let me guess: those are the same Interfaith Scholars who consider the entire New Testament and Christianity in general as a kind of Anti-semitism.
    _________________________________


    Hi Saltmeister,



    Thank you for clarifying. I read Paul’s statement, “cast out the bondswoman,” i.e., the Mosaic covenant, as an uncompromising, in this case highly illiberal imperative, but it is a matter of interpretation.

    On another level, though, and this I like to think ties in, somewhat, with your views of the messianic era, to extend Paul’s (use of the) allegory in this case, it seems to me that Judaism, Christianity and Islam, or at least a remnant from among the three, will be, on some level, finally reconciled when once Hagar is recalled from the wilderness and Isaac and Ishmael embrace, at long last, in fraternal greeting. For that day, I wait.



    Indeed you did. And with characteristic insight, I might add. Thank you.
     
  4. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    I believe judaism really does have a problem with the worship of a creator as just a male and I think they veiw some christians as doing that. The creator(s) is two one male and one female that even though two are also one as well as well as being three. A very complex entity. GOD is only half of this and when people say hes everything it disagrees with the original hebrew texts.
     
  5. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    By the way JESUS never did that. He did teach mary magdalene the doctrine of the wholeness of the creator which is why she is referred to as apostle to the apostles.
     
  6. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    However since JESUS was human and divine she being only human is not his actual female counterpart which is why they wont be together for infinity. JESUS counterpart has to be first his heavenly counterpart , an angelic being not only human in order for the female to be his infinite counterpart. This is the only way it works.
     
  7. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    There will be no more death and no more hades...hades means the grave in texts. So why would that be the place the spend any kind of life. JESUS resurrection has a purpose to spend it where everyone belongs......in paradise.
     
  8. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    I have not asked for quotes you have mentioned about Paul but for the similarity of your views to his. How can one reject the preacher and adopt his doctrines?
    Ben
     
  9. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    BTW, to tell you the truth, the NT is the main source of Antisemitism in the history of this plague in the world. And for the flaw you have concluded my thread to be, would you care discussing the issue? I could learn a thing or two from my mistake brought to light.
    Ben
     
  10. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Now, compare your definition of the Creator as of being two (male and female) and that of Jesus in John 4:24, that the Creator is Spirit, and that the only way to relate to Him is in a spiritual manner. That's a Jewish definition. Yours is Greek. I'll stay with the one of Jesus'. It means that Judaism has no problem as worshiping the Creator is concerned.
    Ben
     
  11. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Wow! Would you mind quoting to me where it says that Mary Magdalene is referred to as apostle to the apostles? If you can't, I understand. You might have said that to yourself. But your mind got printed on the paper and we happened to read it.
    Ben
     
  12. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    You have forgotten that you are talking about a Jew, whose Faith was Judaism. There is absolutely no room in Judaism for the Greek myth of the demigod, who is half human and half divine. Unless you make it clear to us that you are referring to a Greek man.
    Ben
     
  13. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    I did not say to spend some kind of life. I said to spend the afterlife, which is death. Hades, there will always be as long as there is a living mortal on earth.

    As far as Jesus' resurrection is concerned, what are you talking about, a kind of vacation in paradise? Besides, would you mind quoting to me an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus? I can't find any. It seems to me that he survived the cross and left the Land of Israel in order not to be put back on the cross.
    Ben
     
  14. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    Hi Ben,

    Aye, there's the rub. Is one to conclude that Christianity, to appease you and your group of interfaith scholars, should either cease to exist or rewrite its scriptures (or some other option)?

    At any rate, and by way of contrast, it might be worth noting that, according to National Socialists of Germany, the New Testament was the source of an enfeebling, that is to say (to their pagan, martial society) emasculating source of philo-Semitism. To them, St. Paul, with what Nietzsche (not a National Socialist) called that "rabbinic impudence which distinguishes him in all things," was the spreader of the Jewish "plague" of Christianity to the otherwise noble Europeans (excluding Slavs et. al.).

    Correction. I don't find your thread to be flawed. I found your brief excursus into "Replacement Theology" flawed. I wouldn't mind providing a critique if you won't mind telling me why you provided it. What about Replacement Theology did it seem I had failed to understand? I told Saltmeister that I agreed with your reading of Galatians, after all, and that, I should think, ought to have earned me one of your crowns of approval rather than a reproof.

    Serv
     
  15. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    All the same. Be my guest and provide me with the critique you allude to, if you don't mind. I would like to know where I have flawed.

    And for those morons among the National Socialists of Germany, they had no idea that Jews had no part in the rising of the NT. Not a single Jew wrote any of the books of the NT.
    Ben
     
  16. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    Tell that to the notorious "moron" Nietzsche. He, a master of philology, said that Paul wrote with a "rabbinical impudence" which distinguished him in all things. That was said in a book you ought to applaud: The Antichrist.
     
  17. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    This is what makes Paul's ideology controversial. Is Reform Judaism right, or is Orthodox Judaism right? Orthodox Jews accept and obey halakha. Reform Jews accept it but don't believe they need to follow it.

    Neglecting the things you've said that make you sound like a Karaite or Sadducee, I take it you're an Orthodox Jew. -- or maybe you're ultra-Orthodox?

    Different people in early Christianity had a different interpretation of the death of Jesus. The Jerusalem Church probably interpreted it as meaning that they should follow either Jesus' own teachings or the teachings of Beit Hillel. For the Jerusalem Church, Jesus' death had a similar meaning to what the heavenly voice (Bat Kol) said when it declared, "these and these are the words of the living God, but the Halakha follows the rulings of Beit Hillel." Jesus' death set the Nazarenes free from having to follow the teachings of Beit Shammai so they could follow teachings similar to Beit Hillel. This would have been the equivalent of today's Orthodox Jewish ideology.

    Paul went further than that. Paul's interpretation was that halakha wasn't that important anymore. It was not license to sin, but rather it was an acknowledgement that others could also be "righteous" apart from Jewish halakha. Jewish halakha did not have a monopoly on righteousness or morality. Gentiles too had a sense of morality. Jewish halakha could be discarded if a person could substitute it with a different but equivalent system of ethics. Notions of sin and righteousness had their equivalent in foreign cultures, which had different ways of expressing it. It was not a dismissal of halakha, but a way of justifying the idea that it was interchangeable with something else. Paul's position was the equivalent of today's Reform Judaism.

    Most Christians today, particularly Protestants, follow Paul's ideology (equivalent to Reform), not the ideology of the Jerusalem Church (equivalent to Orthodox). I have no idea how Catholics see this -- I got the impression from some documentary I saw recently that the Catholic Church actually explores the dispute/conflict between Peter and Paul and Peter had different views on Jewish Law than did Paul.
     
  18. Princely

    Princely Interfaith Forums

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    The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Jesus says it so do I. He is the preacher I follow as well as all the prophets of the Lord. We are One in the Holy One of Israel , the Lord, the God of hosts. Paul was a deceiver and no brother of ours. Jesus said; "As the father sent me that is how I send you." I take it to heart. I know the Lord and I keep His words.

    The Lord says this;

    "Hear the word of the Lord, you who tremble at his word: Your brethren who, because of my name, hate and reject you, say, "Let the Lord show his glory that we may see your joy"; but they shall be put to shame.The Lord’s power shall be known to his servants, but to his enemies, his wrath.
    The Lord shall judge all mankind by fire and sword. and many shall be slain by the Lord."

    Lo, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and burning anger; To lay waste the land and destroy the sinners within it!

    If you wish to return, O Israel, says the Lord, return to me. If you put your detestable things out of my sight, and do not stray,
    Then you can swear, As the Lord lives, in truth, in judgment, and in justice; Then shall the nations use his name in blessing, and glory in him.

    This is the nation which does not listen to the voice of the Lord, its God, or take correction. Faithfulness has disappeared; the word of the Lord is gone from their speech.

    No one speaks the truth. They refuse to recognize me, says the Lord.

    The Lord has a sword which consumes the land, from end to end: no peace for all mankind.


    That's the word of the Lord who sent me. I do nothing on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I’m not seeking my own will but the will of the One who sent me.
    The Lord who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard his voice nor seen his form, and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the One whom he has sent. Search the scriptures if you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.
    But you do not want to come to me to have life.

     
  19. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Nietzsche did not know of our Jewish policy that one of the reasons for a Jew to lose his Jewish identity is to confess the beliefs of another religion opposite to Judaism. Paul ceased being Jewish when he founded Christianity in the city of Antioch, about 35 years after Jesus had been gone. Read Acts 11:26.
    Ben
     
  20. Servetus

    Servetus New Member

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    You've got it all wrong: to Nietzsche and some of his later disciples, Paul was the ultimate Jew. Paul, with his "transvaluation of all values," in other words, outdid the Jews.

    Some years later, to Nietzsche's charge of “rabbinical impudence” against St. Paul, General Ludendorff, probably a disciple of the former rather than the latter, added that Paul was a gay epileptic and distiller of the Jewish poison, i.e., Christianity, through a defenseless, pagan Europe.

    Serv
     

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