Spiritual Stages Advice?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Persona, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It does not, no, and this is the whole goal: to find absolute happiness, to defeat all fear, not to create distractions which create them temporarily. It is the point of every pursuit man engages with, that he might find happiness finally through this new desire.

    Absolute happiness and removal of fear comes from an inner experience that grows from unknown sources within us. I cannot say that belief and hope are meaningful at all, because they are the types of consolations I have talked about earlier. We must come to a place of genuine realization, a point where we are truly content simply being. Life has given us everything, yet we seek more and more, happiness is found in realizing we already have enough. It is to stop and realize we never needed to be here, that in chasing desires we are just avoiding the beauty that is all around us. There is absolutely no point to anything, yet we have been given the opportunity to experience it all. We have not even been asked, it has simply been handed to us, yet we go on squandering it because of greed.

    Truly, I tell you it is a beautiful thing when it directly hits you "I am fooling myself", you see it currently, but if you are still pursuing things I cannot say it has really sunk in yet. It is fine, we all go at our own pace, just do not die still wanting more, you must find that place of fulfillment and I say to you it is not outside you.
     
  2. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It is a common mistake man makes, that in making others happy, in healing others he will find happiness himself. In truth, he is merely distracting himself and eventually he must see that in reality he is trying to share something which he himself doesn't have.

    To share something, you must first have it abundantly. This is the point of meditation, that your energies grow inwardly. The point of the chakra practices is to bring these energies into a more efficient flowing, then and only then you can share love and life with another. If you try without building energies, you will quickly become frustrated, it means you do not have the energy to continue with it - it is often called "hitting a wall", but there is a state that has no walls, where there is only abundance.

    This is the state we call enlightenment, but dreams and hopes, judgments we place on existence, these are all draining our energies constantly, it is no wonder we do not have enough for happiness.
     
  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Are you playing sophmoric jokes or is it un-mitigated adolecent musings?

    Look at a Telephone directory ---Look at the Commercial Listings.
    What do you see?
    You see Experts advertising their services for ... MONEY.

    Do you dare call a plumber to fix your flat tire?
    Do you change the tire your self without consulting the manual?

    Look at Movie Actors in Great Movies ---I guess it would not occur to some people that the actor and crew are all the most expert personel only.

    Look at Movie Actors in flop Movies ---I guess it would not occur to some people that the actor and crew are all the most ALMOST expert personel only ---but the final edit is done by an INEXPERIENCED Editor ad/or Artistic director incharge. Such projects are an ensemble project.

    Each Actor is responsible for real expert work ---and the post-production people must possess the ARTISTIC SENSIBILTIES.

    Artistic Sensibilities of the Human Condition; Cinematography; Story-telling and Reportage; Interpersonal skills; video editing; marketing; dramaturgy; Staff management ---all come via one's own gumption.

    Ya see, a "Dramatic Story" starts with a protaganists seeking a Goal.
    If no goal is sought ---there is no story to tell.

    Also, all INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER LEARNING are making more money than in the History of Mankind as of 2012.

    99% of the classrooms are dominated by learned tenured professors teaching every subject accept "Classical Silent Mantra Meditation".

    What subject do want a professor to instruct you in?

    I spoke of HOW to verify Truth for yourself.

    Ya'll ain't gonna gain ESP or omini-presewnt enclyclopedic knowledge of nothing by Wishing Hard that some Un_learnt Knowledge will suddenly materialise in your mind.

    By "learning from within" you will not gain any REAL WORLD KNOWLEDGE.

    I am describing homework. One does their own homework.

    Of course, this question makes no sense.

    Women concerned about being raped & then imprsioned & then thinking about call a telephone number ... I trying to review the query and find the line of thought ... can't find it.

    When a car-jacker finally comes to a grinding halt with the police and the helicopter live cam streaming into TVs around the country ---he is led to a police car with hand-cuffs . . . and he's told to be carefull not to bump his head. Later the Judge asks "How Does he plead" ---Of course, his human rights are upheld by tax payers.

    SPECIFICITY is the watch word.

    Be specific. Think specific. Act specific. Want specific. Read Road maps specifically. Input the telephone Number specifically.
    Eat specific. Drive the car specific. Use the chainsaw specific.
    Strike a match AS PER INSTRUCTIONS.

    Hay! I just realised . . . toilet paper comes with no instructions!!!
    How could that be!!!!!!!!---I mean even Condoms come with diagram(s).

    SPECIFICITY
     
  4. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    Bahktagan,
    If you spoke with love, I might believe you & want to know more of your perspective, but you don't.
     
  5. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    You're welcome. :)
    I'm not really into Zen, but I liked that story & you reminded me of it.

    I believe that prayer doesn't change things... it changes people & people change things.
    Still, I do wonder about the power of prayer in itself... if intent is strong enough to influence. Maybe. But, usually, action (or sometimes stillness/inaction - whatever love dictates) is necessary.

    I see what you mean & I have to say I can relate & agree somewhat.
    Yet, I don't think love is limited to feeling. That's too selfish. I believe love is hoping & striving for what is best (through trial & error). As a mom, I want what's best for my kids... which involves keeping the family intact, even though my husband & I are growing in different ways.
    If things got worse... & I thought it would be better for them for our family to break up then so be it, but not currently. It's good for them to see their parents sacrifice what they want for a higher cause.
     
  6. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Intent influences your body, it is only your beliefs that cause you to question whether they can influence things beyond the body. There must be the fundamental question of whether you are the body, whether you are the mind, whether you are the emotions, and if you are not what are you? I might suggest that intent stems from this, the core of the onion from prior conversation ;)

    I have not said love is an emotion, love is a bond, a connectedness. Love is not about something in the future, there should not be any goal in it, it is just a sharing.

    I see these as contradictory statements though, that you want the best for your children, yet want to teach them sacrifice. I would ask that you look into whether they conflict or can go together, for me what is best is to live a happy life, yet you are showing them to sacrifice their happiness. If you have some other definition, that is perfectly good, but I am wondering whether you have ever looked at it?
     
  7. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    It seems a dangerous line of discussion though, because it seems I will convince you to divorce if we continue - certainly it is not my goal at all!

    I only wish that all pursue happiness, peace, that all enjoy life because it is precious. I feel like too many people sacrifice their happiness, but for me this must create much regret, I do not want anyone to carry any burden. Life must be experienced fully, totally, else you will wake up one day wondering where it has gone. Society seems fine with this, but I cannot understand why.
     
  8. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    It sounds like a good goal... but it's like shooting for the stars is good to aim high, but you'll never realistically get there while in this mortal body.
    I cannot help but fear... I need a healthy fear, which keeps me from doing stupid things.

    Yeah... this is the obstacle I've come to, Lunitik.
    Trying to negotiate this paradox of spirituality being love (resonating, LIFE, drive to create)... & of spirituality also being peace & stillness, not chasing illusionary happiness.
    As my friend said, "Functional illusions are priceless."

    Yes... it is inside of me... & I do need to remember this, so thank you.
    I tend to try to find it through others - especially forums - even addicting, which I've experimented with many other things & still avoiding addiction - so this is a new challenge.
    Don't you think that a healthy part of spirituality is loving others, though?
    It's like food... you need some - but too little or too much is not good.
     
  9. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    These are sad statements from you, I tell you I have found unceasing happiness, so either you are talking to a ghost or it is absolutely possible in the body. I suppose mortality and your fear are related though, the problem is fear keeps you from living life fully, what is wrong with "stupid things"?

    If you look at most Zen Masters, they always look like they are insane in some way, but it is because they no longer hold back in life, whatever occurs to them in the moment is what they do. Ordinarily, it is the mind which gives us various statements about whatever our intent might be, and we talk ourselves out of it. I will suggest that in this is the secret to happiness as well, for it is only the mind which stop bliss from arising.

    Paradoxes are not obstacles! They are complimentary, but your mind wishes to separate them, in love ALL is included, for you find you are everything - you there is no you. This is the ultimate paradox: everything arises from nothingness and continues to contain nothing, and yet even Science agrees now!

    Within, you will come to a point where there is stillness, and this is to resonate, yet outwardly you wish to create more beauty in the world. Your inner world will be utterly calm and tranquil, yet the outer life will be utterly chaotic... both there together in one being! You do not chase beauty though, you do not chase happiness, now you simply share it.

    Loving others arises naturally from spirituality, it takes care of itself. If your path is that of love, sharing love will grow your love, but for me I would say you have to bring a lake of love into your being that you can share something, otherwise you are offering only an empty hand. This is more the meditative path which goes in the opposite direction, so it depends on you. Irrelevant of direction though, you drown in love eventually. The meditator brings himself to nothingness and love explodes, the lover evaporates in the love and realizes their nothingness - both discover all simply is love.

    Which again makes scientific sense, for all atoms consist of energy, this energy has exploded in the heart chakra and so it is experienced as love. This is the same reason Lincoln has said for him the heart chakra is the highest, and my own master would agree. For me, ultimately you remain the observer even of this love, but certainly it is enjoyable to experience it.
     
  10. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    Note again that by 'love' I do not mean the emotion.

    When the heart chakra opens, you realize oneness, utter lack of separateness, this is love for me - simply realizing total interconnectedness, interdependence.

    You are part of everything, and everything is part of you, a Buddhas compassion is nothing but selfishness, he wants to improve the whole because he is the whole - yet still he is not as a distinct person.

    Many religions say you should sacrifice, it is utterly wrong, no enlightened person has ever sacrificed, whatsoever they do it is to make the world more beautiful, themselves more beautiful. They understand that after death, only the relativity of their experience ceases, what they actually are simply returns to the source of all energy.

    This they know to be their true nature.
     
  11. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    To say it returns is not really true, because it actually never left - what to do though? It has to be said with words :(
     
  12. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    I don't know, Lunitik.
    My guess is that when we are inseparably linked to this body, in life, we have limits and abilities we wouldn't have in spirit only.
    Still, I think I understand what you mean... in a spiritually applicable way...
    I have some unresolved issues that have manifested themselves over & over again in my life, through different people & means. Somehow, my spiritual energy that involves pain & a need for healing, is manifesting plenty of opportunities to reacquaint myself with the pain & another chance to heal it. I'm trying not to hide or distract myself from it. I'm tired of attracting this pain & just want to be done & move on.

    I agree that we need to make the most of life - no regrets.
    And one aspect of that, for me as a mother, is doing everything I can to raise my kids well. Love is not always feeling good about loving... sometimes it sucks! IMO, "baby blues" are this huge paradigm shift from "me me me" to "you you you." As ecstatic as I was to have a baby (like Christmas morning x 100)... it was a bit of a grieving process to realize I'd never be carefree & fancy free again. Now I was 100% responsible for a human being. I remember getting sick & still had to get up several times in the middle of the night to change and feed my baby. It felt like hell... but at the same time, my love grew. I impressed myself at how much I had to give. I didn't know I had it in me until I was called upon to.
     
  13. Lunitik

    Lunitik Interfaith Forums

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    When you use a car, are you part of the car? Certainly you will have to adjust to the mechanisms of the car, and you can move much faster, but you yourself are utterly distinct and if you bring the car to a stop you can simply get out and get back in if you'd like, even drive another car.

    The mind moves in circles as all things in manifestation do, healing only means to face it and drop it - to get out of this particular cycle running through your experience. Eventually you come to a point where you find that which doesn't move, you leave the cycles of existence all together, if this happens during life you come to simply enjoy the cycles as something entertaining - you are no more entangled.

    I am speaking about a recognition of "me me me" and "you you you" is not different at all, and it is something very important in what you have talked about here. You cannot allow the child to be a burden, there is no reason why you should feel down about being a mother, like it is the end of you. There is no reason you can't be carefree and fancy free while still being responsible for the child, it is just a new dimension in your life but you will add more stress to it all if you think this is a sacrifice. A child is not a sacrifice, it is a gift, it is the most beautiful experience in life to actually create life yourself.

    Of course, I go on saying that love growing is actually life growing within you, there is no possible way to exhaust the supply unless you cut the cord of love. It is very easy, and life teaches you in its way that it is just whenever you do things (traditionally) selfishly, when you see the benefits as being strictly for your own life, when you are asking how you will be repaid for this, you always feel more exhausted when it is done. It only takes a little change in perception, approach everything through love and you will always have more in reserve, this is an law of existence, the more you share the more comes back to you.
     
  14. Sam Albion

    Sam Albion akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!

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    1: archaic consciousness of Infants-- to me, this doesn't exist. Children only "know" the Gods they are given

    2. Magical consciousness of Children -- all children are prone to "magical thinking". It's like... reality testing. All children exposed to religious conditioning will participate in reality testing. "If I pray, can I make the bad things go away?" "If I pray, will God love/protect/listen to me?".

    3. mythic consciousness -- children believe the themes of the stories they have been presented with -- they know their religious histories, and believe in them...

    4. rational consciousness -- most people never develop a rational consciousness. Unfortunately. They stick with the magical thinking. Until something really BIG happens, and they become severely disappointed.

    5. vision-logic consciousness "seeing is believing". Hardly anyone ever "sees". They pretend instead. IMHO.

    6. Psychic consciousness -- most of the people I meet who profess to be psychic are not. In my belief system, this is stage 3

    7. Dark Night of the Senses -- aka the Long Dark Night of The Soul... In my belief system, this exists, but not as a seperate stage.

    8. Subtle Consciousness -- this exists, in my system, but it wouldn't be placed here.

    9. Dark Night of the soul -- see 7, above...

    10. Resurrection from the Dark Night -- this wouldn't occur, in my system
    11. Christ (or however you define God) Consciousness -- this occurs, but not here, in my system..

    12. Nondual Consciousness -- this occurs, in my system, but not here.

    Instead, I have a... system like this...

    1 Self's Knowledge of God -- ecstatic, fervent, massive, transcendental
    2 "God" and self merging -- transforming, blessed, in love,
    3 development of psychic powers/holyness --uniting, becoming, absorbing
    4 fall from grace -- realising the idol has feet of clay/realising you're not the controller/ getting your fingers burnt/having somebody pee on your bonfire
    5 long dark teatime of the soul -- coming to terms with the reality of things, recovering, realigning, replenishing,
    6 self and god shake hands -- acceptance of reality, both good and bad
    7 easy acceptance... have come to terms, have loosened up, less fervent, less polemical...

    This, of course, is based on the assumption wanting to know more of God, wanting to develop "spiritually" springs from an actual "meeting with source", as opposed to... hearing about it from somebody else...
     
  15. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Do not Jesus say, "One learns by hearing" ---No?
     
  16. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    I am sometimes mystified at the lengths which the human mind will go to continue the illusion.
    This conversation is surprising, shocking, and (you'll pardon me? ) amusing....
    I find it very interesting that folks are always looking for a ruler to measure how "advanced" they are. Spiritual Stages? I'm thinking STAGE COACH........
    There are only two states which are important to the actual spiritual seeker, as far as I see it. Asleep and awake.
    Most live entire lifetimes asleep and dreaming, over and over again. I would be pleased and surprised to find that 5 enlightened folks will find our words here.... most will sleep right through the conversation.
    It only becomes an interesting point to contemplate, as you get close to the necessary vibrational level which will enable one to move beyond the physical. And that is an individual who is not necessarily going to be pointing out that " Hey, I made it to the 7th level, how far have you made it?" but folks are different.... could happen i guess....
    Karma is autopilot for the soul - As one becomes naturally inclined to exist in a cooperative mode, accessing creative energies instead of destructive energies, one is gently introduced to concepts which will keep the soul progressing.
    The stages which folks are looking for take place in the mind, and directly relate to how the mind is interacting with the stimulus coming to it.
    Directing that interaction is the key.
    Letting go of the idea that one's entire experience began with birth is a necessary first step.
    Followed by the next revelation, which is that existence has carried the soul through countless incarnations in physical manifestation.
    Which leads to this: you have come this far on autopilot... it has had the flavor of LUCK far too many times... ( what a long and tiring road )
    and ending with the haunting thought - " I must do this work for myself, and consciously - right now - If I am to escape falling right back into slumber when this life is over..."
    I have never, ever heard two spiritually advanced folks "measuring" each other's progress..... the practice is solidly rooted in the EGO - which doesn't realize that the True Self is perfect in every way ( neither does it know that it was never meant to have full control for the duration. )
    The ego is the driver on the Karmic bus - and it will have you riding til the last stop if you let it..... for it's future is dissolution when the soul Wakes....
     
  17. Sam Albion

    Sam Albion akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!

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    BMS,

    developmental psychology has plenty of "stage theories"... and most of them are pretty useful. Why should religious or spiritual development be any different? It's a process, like any other.

    You're laughing at my casual attempts to define such, but I too, can laugh, at you, and your use of terms such as " vibrational level", "karma is autopilot for the soul", "True Self", "the ego is the driver of the karmic bus"...

    But shucks, so many people 'round here know so much more than I do. I will never be as... spiritually aware as all you... guru types...

    Maybe I should just top myself now, get it over and done with...
     
  18. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    Please do not think i was laughing at you! My amusement is for myself - I am reading my own thoughts, from my past - through you. It is always either amusing or embarrassing to view ourselves in hindsight. My pride still gives me terrible problems - but thankfully I am able to acknowledge it and try to do better... of course I make mistakes - but I am quick to apologize, and strive not to repeat errors.

    I am quite aware that I use unique terms ( or uniquely USE terms ) and I relish the chance to correct misunderstandings - it keeps the conversation going.

    My actual attempt - as clumsy as it was - was meant to remove the weight folks feel about the need to acquire "secret" knowledge to achieve what is in their hearts.
    The reason I would say such is personal experience.
    I am fairly sure I have chased down all the individual techniques for doing just about everything which the human body is able to withstand.
    At the end of it all - exhausted and forlorn, I fell inside myself - like falling off a cliff. My intention was, to be honest, was simply to pout for a while... feeling sorry for myself. But the experience I had was to change my life, and show me a few things that might benefit others...

    I don't expect to have much effect, in actuality, but at least I would hope to have done no harm - You have my sincere apologies - as I see I have offended you...
     
  19. Sam Albion

    Sam Albion akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!

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    Brother Michael Sky... you suggest I should not be offended that you claim you are

    "... reading [your] own thoughts, from [your] past - through [me]..".

    You also said...

    "It is always either amusing or embarrassing to view ourselves in hindsight. My pride still gives me terrible problems - but thankfully I am able to acknowledge it and try to do better... of course I make mistakes - but I am quick to apologize, and strive not to repeat errors".

    The implication here being, what? That my comments are either amusing, or embarassing, or are not as valid as yours, because I am not quite at the same level of vibration as yourself... The inference is that you view me to be less than you. You have come such a long way, and I have still got so far to travel... or words to that effect.

    And yes, that offends me. But only mildly. I won't lose sleep over it. It offends me because of the inference, which admittedly is mine, that you consider yourself to be better than me.

    You're not. And, I'm not better than you. (Just thought I'd point it out).

    You, like me, are just another random IF poster. When we've gone, others will take our place.

    You're not using unique terms, BMS -- you're spouting the same old slogans the rest of the guru types around here do. Soundbites and platitudes and all in the kingdom is suddenly rosy. People like me better not disagree, or there'll be trouble, right?

    My attitude these days is, well... bring it on.

    I'm... feeling peeved, in interfaith these days, because I'm sick of listening to guru wannabes, pontificating their home-spun philosophies and laughing at people who don't believe the rubbish they believe as if they've got something special, especially when what they've got is but a poor, ugly relation of something worth having.

    And maybe, here, I'm taking that out on you.

    Personal experience tells me many things, too. I too have chased down all the individual techniques for doing just about everything the human body is able to withstand, in a spiritual sense.

    Yet, at the end of it, I wasn't folorn, or disappointed. I got it. I found what I was looking for. Every time I knock at the door, I find it opens. It doesn't matter who's on the door -- I'm always on the guest list. I realise that's galling, to some, but, there you have it. Possessing this... knowledge hasn't made me richer, or cleverer, or better than anyone else. In fact, quite the opposite. But, what it did keep me, was alive. And it kept my faith alive, even if my faith is not something I go around shouting about, small and useless that it is...

    Pride, ego... useful things. Not maligned, warped states, but real, human, and relevant. Rid yourself of them at your peril. Hate, fear, grief, death and dying -- you can't make them stop. You can try, but you won't manage it.

    But that's just my opinion.

    There is... hidden knowledge, in my opinion. And, again, IMO, it is something worth striving for. The majority of people who go looking for it never find it, and I think they never find it because they don't know where to start. They think finding the secret is the end, when, in truth, it's just the beginning. I think the majority of people shouldn't bother looking for it. It isn't what they want -- they want something else. They should look for that instead.
    ...............

    Bhaktajan,

    If God wants to speak to you, will he send a messenger, or will he speak to you himself?

    To hear, one must be able to listen.

    ................................
     
  20. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    What do you suppose is rising up inside you in defense of your present ideas?

    But you are probably right - how could it be possible for me to see something of myself - within the few words of yours which I have read?

    My comments were not directed specifically at you - I quoted no one - but since you jumped up all offended, I tried to allay your fears...

    When pride jumps up in front of you - you just MAY have an issue with it - especially when someone who has posted less than ten times, offends you in such a manner.
    Do you need sycophants - or fellow seekers?
    Sometimes folks will offend you, sometimes they will not understand the thrust of your conversation, and sometimes they will notice when you have stalled on your path....

    I personally ascribe to the belief that we bear PERSONAL responsibility for our own development. No one need listen to me - you included - and it will make very little difference to me.
    The reason I am here is for conversation - if you expect me to put across ideas which are supportive to everyone's individual path, you will be disappointed. Simply cannot work that way. It is when our ideas are challenged that we are forced to consider their validity....
    Not wishing to have our ideas challenged - or being offended by a person's first words - is INDEED indicative of SOMETHING, but I will leave that to you to figure out.

    Yes, I am another IF poster.... so why are you so offended?
     

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