the resurrection of the body & the life of the world-to-come

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by salishan, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. salishan

    salishan freesoul

    Oct 15, 2011
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    he's in a better place
    some person (not a Quaker) says , shaking my hand

    & i have to wonder where this notion comes from


    when u die , u "go to heaven"
    (or to someplace not nearly so nice)
    is the assumption of American Christianity
    & is an assumption that dates (at least) from 14th century Europe
    (from The Divine Comedy of Dante Alighieri)

    i am not interested in debating the merits of this assumption
    (at least , not at this time) but
    i am curious as to when (& how) this notion originated
    this notion that ...

    after a good person dies , they go right up to heaven
    (a "good Christian" , anyway)


    this notion does not appear to have existed
    for (at least) the first 6 centuries of Christianity

    resurrection will occur , only at the end of time when
    the secular kingdom of man will be replaced by the kingdom of Gyd
    & all persons will be raised up from the grave to be judged

    this resurrection -> judgment -> paradise (on earth) at the end of time
    appears to be a Zoroastrian notion which Judaism picks up
    (during or after the Babylonian captivity) & becomes linked to
    to a Judaic "messianic" eschatology supported by some Jewish sects
    (the "followers of the way" / i.e. Jesus-sect , being one of these)

    the expectation is that when the Messiah arrives &
    the kingdom of Gyd defeats the kingdom of man
    "time" (as we know it) ends , then the righteous
    will be bodily-raised from the grave & paradise on earth will ensue


    4th century-ce
    5th century-ce
    6th century-ce
    the "world-to-come" of the Nicene Creed (the revised 381-ce version)
    is a direct translation of the Jewish phrase "olam haba"
    & is a reference to the messianic era following Gyd's victory

    also , "the resurrection of the body" of the Apostle's Creed
    refers to a debate in both Jewish & Christian circles in the 1st century-ce
    concerning whether a person's corpse will , literally
    (like Ezekiel's "plain of dry bones") reanimate (or not)
    (Paul of Tarsus arguing that u get a "new body" in the world-to-come
    Paul in the end losing this argument to the later Christian mainstream
    losing to those authors of the 3 Creeds who each believe
    that "all men will rise again with their bodies")
    or concerning
    whether a blind-man will be raised-up from the grave , blind or with sight ?
    whether a lame-man will be raised-up from the grave , lame or walking-easy ?
    (Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 91b , also Midrash Rabbah Ecclesiastes 1.6)

    what is so startling to Gentile & Jewish Christians in the 1st century, is the notion that
    a deceased-individual is in-the-grave (in Hades) for 3 days then is returned to earth
    this is something which is supposed to happen only at the end of time
    no Jew (before Jesus) is reputed to have been bodily-raised by Gyd from the dead
    so that this "Jesus-rising" seems to be a sign , to those hoping-for the coming Apocalypse
    that the last days are near


    & this expectation , for
    the resurrection of the body & the life of the world-to-come , is a
    core-belief expressed in the Nicene Creed & Apostles Creed & Athanasian Creed
    (at least in Western Christendom) thru (at least) the 6th century-ce

    i am curious if anyone knows
    when this belief in teleportation to "a better place"
    at the end of time becomes (instead)
    (as with Jesus) an event which
    transpires shortly after a person's death ... ?

    (curious , historically
    when this shift-in-thinking about the timing of "the afterlife" happens
    & why this shift occurs ... ? ? )

  2. donnann

    donnann Active Member

    Aug 8, 2011
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    It was originally suppose to be a natural progression to a higher state but the fall occurred so the spirit and soul were sealed away from the body only being filtered through on a senses level to the body. I believe the progression is still taking place at the spirit and soul and body levels so that when the final resurrection takes place we will be crystal beings. I believe changes are also taking place in the heavenly universe where the bodies souls and spirits are not separate but they are not crystal beings yet and why prophecies talk about not just a new earth but also a new heaven. I believe one day all will reside in one big universe so there is no separation between these two universes. The third place the crystal place is beyond the heavenly universe and is the place of creation itself. Where all elements are one at the source and this is where this crystal union comes from.
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sep 25, 2003
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    Hi Salishan —
    Dante has a lot to answer for, I'll grant you, but I think you're giving him too much credit here. The Orthodox Patriarchates share a common eschatalogical vision with the West, and they've never heard of him!

    What? It's in Scripture for a start (cf Luke 23). Six centuries is a lot of ground to cover in one stride — have you read the Fathers on the question?

    I think you might be confusing the teachings on the General Resurrection with the teaching on man's immediate eschatology? They're two different things.

    Which is still open, as it should be, because no-one knows, do they? Nor will they, until it happens. It would make more sense to refer to contemporary theological ideas about the resurrection, as they're just as valid.

    Understandably so.

    I don't think you can be that emphatic. There's the question of Elijah 2 Kings 2:11-12, the widow's son in 1 Kings 17:21-22, the Shunammite woman's son in 2 Kings 4:32-37...

    This is not an either/or argument, rather both views were (and are) held by Christians (although not all denominations) without contradiction.

    I would say up until recent history ... once freedom of religious expression got underway in America, then all manner of denominations sprang up.

    Certainly the Early Church had no problem with holding both ideas, and nor should you assume the ideas solidified as late as you suppose. Remember we (by which I mean the Catholic West) share the same eschatological vision as the Orthodox East on the issues raised, and they have no idea who Dante was, and he certainly does not speak authoritatively for them (any more than he does for the West).

    The 'with Christ now' stems from Scripture, especially John and Paul, although might not be immediately discernable, without the commentary of Tradition.

    God bless,

  4. salishan

    salishan freesoul

    Oct 15, 2011
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    exquisite creature

    returning to earth from the realm of the dead
    then proceeding from earth (like Jesus) straight to heaven
    the widow's son & Shunammite woman's son
    are miraculous healing-acts (performed by Elijah & Elisha , respectively
    acts of "bringing the dead back-to-life" , acts Jesus himself performed 3 times)
    (these youngsters from Kings did not , soon-after revival
    shoot straight-up-to-heaven)

    regarding the flaming chariot & horses which snatched Elijah ?
    i don't know what to say
    (maybe the tornado dropped Elijah's cadaver upon some inaccessible mountain-top
    which the "50 strong men" could not get-at ;) )


    the idea of a person going straight-to-heaven , right after they die
    does not appear to be on anyone's mental radar
    within the Judaic/Hellenistic conceptual-worlds of the 1st century
    (rather , perceiving oneself at death
    as going just to the grave , just to Sheol/Hades)
    this biblical fact is a strange anomaly , isn't it ?
    (Jesus to the repentant-thief beside him , at Golgotha) ...
    NEWS AT 11
    the first 3 persons in history whom Gyd permits to
    punch their tickets & board the train to heaven , are
    Elijah & Jesus & oh , ... get this
    the third is some nameless 1st-century common-criminal

    (who-the-hell is this guy ?
    that he should cut-in-line in front of Moses & Abraham ? )

    there is controversy around the translation of this line-of-dialog from Luke
    where do u put the comma ? , before or after the word "today" ?

    most Bibles put the comma before "today"
    truly i say to u , ... today u shall be with me in Paradise
    which is a wonderfully dramatic reading of the line ! , but
    is a reading , woefully lacking in logic (remember , that
    Jesus has a full-plate ahead of him , got to descend into hell
    for 3 days & 3 nights , with his ascent to heaven still a few weeks off)

    the correct reading of the line is probably the one with comma after "today"
    truly i say to u today ... , u shall be with me in Paradise
    which is the wording found in 2 Syriac bibles & the Jehovah's-Witnesses scripture
    be seeing u , pal
    when the Final Trumpet blasts

    (the guy's got to stay in his grave
    wait-in-line like the rest)


    (& Thomas , i apologize for my metaphors
    i'm not trying to be facetious , i'm just trying to be plain)


    but check it out , the word Paradise (above) is an interesting word
    (it occurs less than a dozen times in the Bible)
    pardes in Hebrew
    paradeisos in Greek

    both words derive from
    pairi deaza from Eastern Old Iranian
    meaning a "walled-enclosure" , specifically a
    "temple garden"

    in Mesopotamia & beyond , most city-states have
    a large temple-complex for their patron-deity (not just an isolated Temple)
    & within this temple-complex , there is almost always a
    "temple garden" (typically consisting of fruit-trees) , walled-off from outsiders
    & , aside from a priest & priestess who maintain the garden
    no one is permitted inside the garden , because it is
    the private refuge of the patron-deity , a place for her or him to relax

    this pairi deaza is also meant to mirror the primordial agrarian-creation
    mankind's first garden (& is likely the principal literary source-idea for
    the Mesopotamian & the Hebrew versions of "the Garden of Eden"
    as described in the Enuma Elish & in Genesis 2)

    in later (more secular/kingship) times , "Paradise"
    (pardesu in Akkadian , pardaysa in Aramaic)
    refers (instead) to a "royal park" (the exclusive wildlife preserve of a king)

    "Paradise" is an attractive recreation site , the kind of place a king might also
    wish to build his tomb , build his "eternal resting-place"


    correct me if i'm wrong , but

    in the folk-eschatology of Classic Judaism
    (the Judaism of the time of Jesus)
    the thing which Jews call "Paradise" is not heaven

    well , not "7th Heaven" anyway
    Paradise (instead) is equated with "3rd Heaven"
    3rd Heaven may be found above earth , or below earth
    or on the same plane as earth but invisible
    (it's unclear which)

    in the Pseudepigrapha Apocalypse of Moses , Paradise (3rd Heaven)
    is where Adam is buried , to await the resurrection of the dead
    (to wait there with everyone else , but Adam has one of the best plots)
    Abraham & Isaac & Jacob & Moses & Aaron & all the kings of Judah are there
    Paradise is a pleasant-place where they can rest in peace , while
    they await the Last Trumpet

    Paradise is a kind of waiting-room at a train-station
    (a vast , green & luxurious waiting-area
    because it may be awhile before the train arrives)

    Paradise is a (well-kept) cemetery


    according to the Pseudepigrapha Book of the Secrets of Enoch , this
    3rd Heaven exists between corruptibility & incorruptibility
    (2 Enoch 8:5)

    in Paul of Tarsus's eschatology
    the train to Heaven is near
    & this train-station waiting-room (i.e. Paradise)
    must be the place where each person
    (eager with ticket in-hand but ticket not yet punched)
    anticipates the moment when they are called
    to slip-out-of their old (corruptible) body &
    to don their new (incorruptible) one
    but it appears to me , Thomas
    (with the exception of Elijah & Jesus)​

    nobody jumps the gun ! !

  5. salishan

    salishan freesoul

    Oct 15, 2011
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    exquisite creature

    wanted to thank u for u'r lengthy answer

    though what i was looking for (with my original question) are just two things
    1. a year
    2. a couple documents to corroborate the date

    (i fear u have missed the simple character of my question)


    like many fellow messianic Jews , Paul of Tarsus
    expects the "world to come" (olam haba) to arrive in his lifetime
    (the New Age , when Gyd establishes his kingdom on earth)

    but years pass , & nothing
    his converts in Corinth & Thessalonica & elsewhere begin to worry
    (since their fellow congregants are beginning to die-off)
    & they complain to Paul of Tarsus of their unease, &
    Paul of Tarsus answers them , with
    (& here , u gotta feel for the guy ! )
    his same old song & dance , but now more passionately spoken
    after Paul of Tarsus himself dies (circa 65ce)
    church leaders , like Ignatius or Justin or Tertullian
    keep expecting the imminent arrival of Gyd's kingdom-on-earth
    (waiting unconcernedly , at least into the 3rd century-ce)


    the way i picture this , Thomas
    is faithful Corinthians & Thessalonians dying & waiting in their graves for decades
    (for centuries) , waiting for that Final Trumpet to blast

    Jesus the Galilean rose to Heaven after 3 days in the grave (3 days in "Hades")
    & yes , this demonstration by Gyd of his intentions
    is an unambiguous down-payment on the promised "world to come"
    (the promised kingdom of Gyd , soon to begin its reign on planet earth)

    but Thomas
    if Paul of Tarsus is correct , then
    after u (u'r-self) personally die
    (tomorrow or in 80 years)
    u (too) will lie in the grave , waiting
    (& waiting & waiting)
    till that Final Trumpet sounds

    only then will u see Heaven
    (only then will u enroll in heaven's social-architecture
    once it is instituted , this-time not just up-above
    but down-here on planet earth)

    (if Paul of Tarsus is correct)
    yes ?

    u see this as u'r destiny ?


    is this , Thomas
    what Catholics still believe ?

    (i know that this is what the Anglican Bible-scholar
    N.T. Wright believes)

    or did this belief change after Tertullian ?
    or change later still , after the Nicene & Apostles & Athenasian creeds become catechism ?
    (after these establish Paul's vivid picture of the "world to come" as the official litany of the Church ? )
    or did this belief change after Augustine ? or after Thomas Aquinas ?

    what year (or century) did good Catholics start-in thinking ...
    a good & faithful person goes straight to heaven when they die ?
    (takes the Express Train without delay) ? ?

    (or is this today , an open or unspoken question in the Church ? ) ...


    (i have no sinister agenda , here
    it's just an historical oddity to me , the difference in
    attitude toward the afterlife
    between 1,961-years-ago & today)

    i'm pretty ignorant of Church history , Thomas
    i'm just looking for a date-certain !

  6. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sep 25, 2003
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    Hi Salishan —
    I think Christ and His message was well off the radar of the contemporary world.

    The Bible wasn't written in a day, and the dogmas and doctrines of the Church were not handed over, fully-formed, at Pentecost, they emerge 'as the sedimentation of the witness and beliefs of the living community' as someone said, rather poetically.

    The Hebrew Scriptures evolved in just that way. The literalists like to throw up the issues between the Elhoist, the Jahwist, the Priestly and the Deuteronomic ... those that reads with the eye of the spirit see the unfolding coming to know God.

    The same can be said of all the great sacra doctrina of the world ... perhaps Islam alone claims to be a one-off transmission, entire and complete, but then at what point was the scribe following Mohammed, and writing down, and cross-checking, everything he said?

    The nature of Revelation is not that every 'i' is dotted, every 't' crossed, as some like to suppose. Rather the reality is that it takes shape, it's an organic development. God does not reveal Himself that man can sit back on his arse (not quite so poetic, but I hope you get my drift).

    Are you sure? I would rather say they are the ones we know of ...

    Was there ever a comma there?

    Who's logic? Not Christian logic.

    If Jesus is indeed the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, then He was never 'apart' from God, nor not in heaven ... so the 'correct' reading of the text is, I suggest, according to the understanding of the Tradition that wrote it.

    Indeed, put the comma where you like, it can still be disputed, so really it's much ado about nothing ... which is indicative in itself, methinks.

    Indeed it is.

    But the point is, surely, the Second Coming indicates the arrival of Paradise on earth, not the emergence of Paradise as such. So Paradise exists, and always has done, and this was where man was placed, but from whence he was exiled, but, by the Passion of Christ, was reconciled to the Father (Paul again).


    Remember also that in Christian eschatology, the state between now and the Resurrection is an intermediate state. Look at N.T. Wright — he believes the Resurrection is when the real work of being human begins, not when it ends ...

    In the eschatology of John, of the anonymous author of Hebrews, of Peter (cf 2 Peter 1:4) and of Paul, the vision is one of participation in the Divine Nature. Paul speaks of the community as 'one body' in Christ, of a 'nuptial union' (cf Ephesians), and that the Christian is already dead, and living in Christ.
    "neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39) ... and I suggest that includes space and time, and thus the grave.

    God bless,

  7. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

    Sep 1, 2011
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    Going to heaven or hell has its start in ancient Egypt (Field of Reeds or Duat)
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sep 25, 2003
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    Hi Salishan —
    Well that may be what you believe, but I don't think that's what the ancient communities believed.

    The community saw the Passion as the overcoming of death and the forgiveness of sin and the reconciliation of man with God. The rending of the veil of the temple speaks of the end of the formal separation of God and his people, and speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul through the Sacrament of Baptism. In the same way, every Christian is nailed to the Cross in Christ through the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    We are the Pascal offering, that's what we say in the Liturgy of the Eucharist at every mass. He the head, we the members, one bread, offered to God the Father.

    In effect, Jesus said "Unto thee I commend my spirit (and everyone else with me)" ... that's why the Risen Christ still bears the marks of the wounds ... but then we're getting into deep tradition.

    That's not what he says though, is it?

    I suggest that after I die, I enter some intermediate state between here and the Resurrection, at which point the work begins in earnest ... as per N.T. Wright, if you like. What I don't believe is sitting round on clouds playing harps.

    Again, why? I would rather assume I will take my place 'up there' until work commences 'down here', rather than waiting 'down here' for the celestial highway to arrive, as it were ... that makes more sense to me, according to the message of Scripture.

    Straight away, I reckon ... reflecting that 'good and faithful' usually don't get involved in semantic discussions about the placement of commas. Suffice to say there's enough in Scripture to present the case for an immediate transit. Paul seemed to think so ... so did John ... but both were aware that there would be, at some point in the undisclosed future, a general resurrection, and then everything would change.

    ... At what point did theologians work out the argument surrounding the ideas? Depends how 'worked out' you want it to be. We're still discussing it, as no-one knows, but nothing in the most contemporary theology refutes the theology of Irenaeus, for example.

    That kind of thing is probably open to scholarly dispute. Well respected theologians highlight the differences of views, outlooks and opinions.

    God bless,

  9. salishan

    salishan freesoul

    Oct 15, 2011
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    exquisite creature

    i am talking , here
    about a picture in my head , from my reading
    not a "belief"

    (i have no personal stake , one way or the other)

    i too have read Paul & read John
    (no doubt not as often nor as carefully as u)
    but i recall no passage which would substantiate
    anyone taking the express-train straight to heaven , immediately after death
    (nor any passages in N.T. Wright , for that matter)

    can u point me to definitive verses ?


    thanks for the tip
    i haven't read any Irenaeus , till now

    short version of Irenaeus' eschatology ...
    it appears that , circa 200ce
    there are (in fact) "Christians" who believed that
    the righteous go straight-to-heaven when they die

    (presumably Gnostic heretics ? )

    correct me if i'm wrong , Thomas
    but Irenaeus' eschatology is virtually identical to
    the picture i have painted (in my above posts)

    (which makes u'r "straight-to-heaven" expectation
    a pipedream like that of the "heretics" ;) )


    here is a longer version of Irenaeus' argument ...
    very shrewd
    this argument-by-parallelism
    isn't it ? !

    but very sound reasoning
    (i'd hate to be compelled to erect
    as solid of an argument , opposing it ! )

  10. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Jul 28, 2011
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    Ah, my friends salishan and thomas, hello!

    For what it is worth, Thomas, I believe s is correct in pointing out he (unlike I) is well within the Irenaean tradition in 5.31.2. To wit:

    "As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by Godd and foretold by the prophetss, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege]. "
  11. donnann

    donnann Active Member

    Aug 8, 2011
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    Do you believe in the rapture?
  12. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Jul 28, 2011
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    As far as I can tell, this thread so far has nothing about it.

    That being said, iy by "rapture" (in common, if not precisely correct, terms) one usually is referring to the kind of pre-millienial and pre-tribulation myth created by the Plymouth Puritan Mathers and Irving.

    If this is what you are asking about not just no, but h-e-double-toothpicks no.

    I believe in a general on-going, present resurrection.
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sep 25, 2003
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    Actually, I think the idea of the immediate transit of the soul to God is there before Christianity.

    "But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them"
    Wisdom 3:1-6 (emphasis mine)
    This book dates from the 1-2nd century BC, written in Greek, evidently with an awareness of Plato and the Stoics, and considered non-canonical by Rabbinical Judaism. Nevertheless, here is evidence of the idea of the transitus. The last verse, in my italics, could then refer to events after the General Resurrection.

    And here from the Epistle to the Corinthians of Clement of Rome (c95AD):
    "Peter and Paul, Apostles and Martyrs
    ... Let us have the good Apostles before our eyes. Peter through wicked jealousy endured not one or two hardships but many, and after having thus borne witness went on to the place of glory which was his due... (Paul) then passed out of the world and went on to the holy place, having proved himself the greatest pattern of endurance. With these men of holy life was assembled a great host of the elect...
    " (IX, vv-vi)

    And Irenaeus:
    "... The Lord restored us to friendship through his incarnation, becoming the ‘mediator between God and man.’ On our behalf he propitiated the Father, against whom we had sinned, and cancelled our disobedience by his obedience, restoring us to fellowship with our Maker and submission to him."
    Adversus Haereses, v. xvii. ι

    "The Lord leads into the Paradise of Life those who obey his teaching, ‘consummating in himself all things, things in heaven and things on earth.’ ‘Things in heaven’ are spiritual things, ‘things on earth’ refers to his dealings with man. He ‘consummated all things in himself’ by joining man to Spirit and placing Spirit in man. He himself became the source of Spirit, and he gives Spirit to be the source of man's life. For it is through Spirit that we see and hear and talk."
    Adversus Haereses, v. xx. 2

    "God (the Word) restored in himself man, his ancient handiwork, that he might do to death sin, strip death of its power and give life to man"
    Ibid. in. xviii. 7

    "Because of the grace of the Spirit which has been given us we come to be in him, and he in us; and since the Spirit is God's spirit it is reasonable that we, having the Spirit, should be considered to be ‘in God’ through the Spirit which has been given to us. Not that we come to be in the Father in the same way as the Son is in him. For the Son does not merely partake of the Spirit so as to come to be in the Father by reason of the Spirit: nor does he receive the Spirit, but rather he himself supplies it to all. And the Spirit does not unite the Son to the Father, but rather the Spirit receives from the Word. The Son is in the Father, as being his own Word and radiance; but we, apart from the Spirit, are alien and remote from God, and are united with the Godhead by participation in the Spirit; so that our being in the Father does not belong to us, but to the Spirit, which is in us and dwells in us."
    Contra Arianos, iii. 24

    Lots of the early Fathers to be had here

    The Holy Spirit reveals and leads to the Son, the Son reveals and leads to the Father, this is directly from Scripture — without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Son is not recognised for who He is, and without the Son, man cannot see or know the Father.

    Contrary to what many will claim, belief in the Holy Trinity was there from the very beginning, and Divine Union is a Trinitarian operation ...

    God bless,

  14. donnann

    donnann Active Member

    Aug 8, 2011
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    The soul is multicolored light that is literally an essence that you usually can only feel on the senses level of the body. There are metaphyscial type realites to resurrection. The ancient symbol of the cross was a union symbol and was a process where the holy spirit came down and brought the body of the one prophecied about up and a process follows ending with the sealing of the body. The body still walking around is followed by another seal opening where the body goes from the sealed condition to a big giant spirit being then sealed back down again. This is a series of seal openings and bindings. Final resurrection is where the body goes to its origin and takes on its true form, size ect and goes where it belongs. There is a lot more detail to this. Any thoughts on this aspect of the miracle of resurrection?
  15. Princely

    Princely Interfaith Forums

    Nov 10, 2011
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    That is a misunderstanding given to the wicked who choose not to revere the Lord and serve Him.The word of the Lord to the wicked is like a parable they cannot understand because they will not honor the prophets and the mouth of the Lord.

    The Lord says this;

    "Seek the Lord so you will live,says the Lord.

    "Listen to Me, My people; And give ear to Me, O My nation: For instruction will proceed from Me, And I will make my justice arise as a light of the peoples".

    Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth, who have observed his law; Seek justice, seek humility; perhaps you may be sheltered on the day of the Lord’s anger.

    I am the One who seeks and the One who knocks, the One who asks. Follow me and my fellow prophets.

    The son of man is the resurrection and the life. I am son of man.

    If you have faith in me you will do the works I do and serve the Lord by walking in His ways and spreading His truth.

    I am the resurrection and the life, anyone who believes in me even though he died he will come to life and anyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Jesus and I are one in the Lord, He sent me.
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Sep 27, 2004
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    Q: "Rabbi, I hear these things you say. How may we serve you?"
    A: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve."

    ... "Oh." :confused:

    What about St. Paul and his discussion of spiritual bodies? How does this fit in with the Resurrection?

    And since I'm going to be cremated, what of the current, physical body - which shall be returned to its constituent elements [ashes, dust, etc.]?
  17. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Jul 28, 2011
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    ROTFLOL! Very good, AndrewX. If one believes (as someone appears to) that the scripture is inerrant, this kinda stands as the untimate counterfactual example!
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sep 25, 2003
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    The resurrected body be a triune of spirit/soul/body (note I did not say flesh) as the body is now, the distinction being that in our current lapsarian state the spirit is subject to the soul is subject to the flesh, whereas in the resurrection the proper order will be reconstituted as flesh subject to soul subject to spirit.

    Bear in mind that 'human being' is superior to 'spiritual being', as the human being possesses a body as well as spirit, and thus all created nature is consummated in the human, whereas this is not the case with spiritual beings.

    ... just a thought ...

    Well your current physical body will be reduced to ash ...

    ... bearing in mind that we now know that the body is not 'constant', that its cells, its molecular, its atomic and its sub-atomic constitution is in a constant if variable state of flux, then I would hazard to say this flux will be exponentially dynamic in its resurrected state, and our 'being in the world' will be significantly different than it is now.

    But these are all speculations ...

    ... but then, according to science as presented by Marcus Chown, anything is possible!

    God bless,

  19. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

    Sep 25, 2006
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    Thomas! Incoming pm!
  20. donnann

    donnann Active Member

    Aug 8, 2011
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    The body is suppose to be transformed into a spirit body: It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
    I do not understand why so many concentrate on death when the bible talks so much about the attainment of this new body. Doesnt faith in god lead you to attainment and belief in death instead of life show a lack of faith in god.

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