Where the Truth is Found to be Lies

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by radarmark, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Yep (and all the joy withyou dies!). What I found very disturbing is how the concept of truth is all bantied about on this site.

    Truth is nothing more that the absolute, 100%, no-kidding, correspondence of some statement (or assertion or proposition or thought) to a real occasion (something that happened, is happening, or will happen).

    The intent (or significance) of the words is 100% (no fuzziness here) captured by an event.

    Okay, when is that statement or assertion or proposition or thought true? When it is 100% validate-able --- after the event or before an event that is 100% certain.

    Here is the problem: if G!d gave H!s Holy Word (the Truth) to the Zoroastrians (as they believe) and to the Ancient Hebrews (as their descendents believe) and to the Ethiopian Church (without Revelations, as they believe) and to the Christians (as they believe) and to the Muslims (as they believe) and to the Sikhs (as they believe) and to the Bahai's (as they believe) and to the Ahmadiyya (as they believe) -- we have a real problem, that is nine separate groups claiming Truth.

    Logically, either one of these gods will come back to us and show us or the term truth is not this scientistic, absolute truth I defined above... but a kinder, gentler, more loving, and more G!dlike truth that is in some way all encompassing?

    What do you think?
     
  2. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    your truth, my truth, their truth.

    why cant we all have our own truth and accept that the truth for others is different from ours without judging, preaching, killing testiculating etc ?

    why ?
     
  3. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Yep, makes sense to me. Kinda like Salishan's latest post. If one is caught up in the monkey-mind of sceientistic verification (you do not have to be a scientist to do that) one misses the metaphor, the meaning, the essence of living with the Divine.

    Pure acceptance and love. The unfilled vessel.
     
  4. FutureHumanDestiny

    FutureHumanDestiny New Member

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    when God intervenes in the universe, he will not come to collect Qur'ans or bibles or any other book; he will not hold people to account for what region of the planet they were born, what traditions they believe, what language they speak (or what word they choose to use to refer to god).

    If you want to make God laugh, tell him what religion you follow. If you want to please him, ask him how better you can live your life. if you want to exalt him, still your body, mind, emotions, heart and spirit so that he can speak to you. if you want to understand him, renounce all worldly knowledge and posessions, then devote a thousand lifetimes to that task.

    if you want to please your parents, adopt their religion. if you want to fool your children, give them yours.

    -dale
     
  5. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    love this post :)
     
  6. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    NCOT, FHD, and I could have a grok-off! I'll provide the finger!
     
  7. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    "There's a sucker born every minute"

    The credo of the Circus Barker.

    There's a sucker born every minute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Has anyone noticed the new trend in advertising?:

    The user shown in the advert is a "FOOL" a "Stupid Ass" a "Hellbound Dolt" ---which ends with other contemporaries clamoring to queue up for their morsel of bread too.

    The mass propaganda of the typical vapid citisen is designed to instill passive "Stupidity enmass par excellance".

    Does anyone think they are aloof to it's effects????????????????????
     
  8. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    bhaktajan... forgive me for being a little pedantic (actually really, really anal--not in that way!) but what does "being a sucker" have to do with it?

    Are you pointing out that the ones who founded these religions were barkers, or that someone came along who was who "hi-jacked" the (take your choice Parsi-to-Lahore) movement?
     
  9. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Radar,

    I should have stated it more clearly:

    I am referring to the masses available to hear the message (gospel).

    There is much more schools of Propaganda than there are Religious texts.

    Have you seen the common adverts on TV?

    Pigs are shown as Stand-Ins for males etc etc etc.

    I saw a TV advert with a Black couple in the back seat of a White couple's car ... the black folks are shown "jumping from the moving vehical's rear doors ---rolling on the ground and then standing up and entering a cheaper resturant because of the bargain being hawked.

    How is it that urban youth walk around with their pants hanging below their arse? Via subliminal messages? Or via a marketing Jaggernaut?

    VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
    What I would find an interesting question is:

    "How many spiritual aspirants have experienced first-hand a near-death ordeal in their life?"

    I would suppose that the Majority of spiritual aspirants have had near-mortal brushes with death ---which prompted their spiritual journeys

    ... versus, folks that have NOT had a brush with death, and so, give little thought to the greater questions of "the Mystery of Life".
     
  10. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Oh, I got ya! My fav along that line are the Direct TV "Don't have a Granson with a Dog Collar" AD. Yep, one born every second or so now days.
     
  11. Princely

    Princely Interfaith Forums

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    If you continue in my teaching you are truly my disciple then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

    "The Lords power will be known to His servants but to His enemies His wrath."

    When a man reveres the Lord, He will teach him the way he should choose. He will abide in prosperity, and his descendants shall inherit the land. The friendship of the Lord is with those who revere him, and he makes his covenant known to them.

    Who has stood in the counsel of the Lord to see Him and to hear His words? Who has heeded His words so as to announce them?

    This is the covenant I will make with them, my spirit which is upon you and my words which I have put into your mouth, will never leave your mouth nor the mouth of your children nor the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever".

    The son of man has risen from the dead. I am son of man, once I was dead now I live forever and ever.
     
  12. mojobadshah

    mojobadshah Interfaith Forums

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    I think reason and rationality plays a lot into what we consider truth and what we consider lies. There is a reason history is distinguished from religion. 1 big reason religion would fall on the side of lies is because most of the events and phenomenon described in religious texts can be supported by empirical reasoning. Yet even when it comes to history I myself am very strict in my interpretation. I'm not so much concerned about whether an event took place or the phenomenon described, more so what I find interesting is that the concepts or expressions contained in that composition were conceived of at such and such time in history and I'm interested in the genesis of those expressions, who they influenced, how they influenced. And even if we were to strip the history and religion down to its bare bones the truth is that Judeo-Christianity is essentially a Semitic religion Zoroastrianism is an Aryan religion. Here's another truth that I think you would agree with is that God in Levant (Zoroastrian and Abrahamic) context "a single all mighty creator of the universe that sometimes appears anthropomorphically who fathered mankind" has not yet been proven to exist beyond a shadow of a doubt.
     
  13. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I would add that the original Vedic process to those three. Which came first? Probably Zoroaster (very likely) who talked about the agressive tribes. Those were probably (very likely) the Aryan invaders of India. The Old Testiment is filled with pre-Babylonian Exile fragments and ideas, but it is not until Ezra and Nehemiah that we see a unification of the text.
     
  14. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    not sure what a grok-off is ? is it legal ?
     
  15. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Grok is a term from RA Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" meaning roughly "to know thoroughly". One way the Martians accomplished this (the hero was raised by Martians) was to make a stew of the deceased (hence the finger metaphor).
     
  16. mojobadshah

    mojobadshah Interfaith Forums

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    That's a good point. The Avesta (Aryan Bible) describes the conflict between the herding society of the Aryan-Aryans and the unsettled Turanian-Aryan cattle-lifting invaders. Convention places the Avestan people as early as 1500 B.C. in Yaz culture complex because there is no evidence of inhumation (I guess that means graves). How they know exhumation (no graves) earlier and Avestan culture wasn't established closer to 7000-5000 BCE. when our earliest evidence of the herding society appears (such as in Merghrab) I don't know. There are two other points worth noting when it comes to the dating Avestan culture. There is an astronomical phenomenon known as the Four Royal Persian Stars (seeUntitled Document). If I understand it correctly these four stars appear only once every 2400 years during what is known as the great year or precession. Does that mean that the Avestan people had to have observed the appears of the Four Royal Stars in order to know that they appear when they do, I don't know. Based on this observation which is mentioned in Zoroastrian tradition some scholars have placed Zarathushtra as early as 10,000 BCE. Lastly, I've been doing some research on the Hom Yasht. It looks like the use of hallucinagenics like Hom, maybe Hemp, precedes even the agricultural revolution 4000BCE, and its already well known that the Hom liturgy is probably the oldest of the Gathic hymns, going back before Zarathushtra.

    Off the top of my head, my understanding is that after the Indo-Iranians split the Aryans (Irano-Afghans) occupied the steppes and the Indics occupied the region where Afghanistan is today. Later the Irano-Afghans pushed the Indics south. The Rig Veda, the earliest of the Vedic hymns, were written in the Panjab, on part where the Afghan-Iranians, Pashtuns, lived for a long time before the establishment of Pakistan. Pashtun is generally an East Iranian language, the closest thing to a direct linguistic descendent of the language of Zarathushtra and the Avestan people, but it does show Indic influence.

    Scholars have also proposed a Indo-Iranian connection. These are a few linguistic connections I find more believable.

    Sum. abzu Akk. apsu “the underground sweet waters sea and its male personification; abyss. A lw from Sumerian. In Sumerian mythology, Abzu, the sweet water, sea and Tiamat, the salt waters are the original couple, from whom all the creatures are born. The Akkadians were familiar with this myth, and when the gandharva was called Apsu and his wife the aqueous nymph apyaa ca yosaa the poet of RV X.104. was referring to this myth. There are several phrases in RV where apsu appears as the first item and is interpreted as ‘in the waters’ rendering the phrase… - 204

    The Ab-Zohr (āb-zōhr) is the culminating rite of the greater Yasna service, the principal Zoroastrian act of worship that accompanies the recitation of the Yasna liturgy. As described in the liturgy that accompanies the procedure, the rite constitutes a symbolic offering (zohr < zaoϑra) to the waters (aban < apas) in order to purify them.


    7. Danu, Danu is the name of the mother of the Daanavas, the inimical demoniac beings. Howver they were perhpas like the Asuras, a clan (MBh). Vrtra, whois also supposed to be a serpent demon, was killed by Indra. His mother's name was Danu, or Daanu. Danu occurs in cuneiform sources as PN in Pre-Sargonic, Sargonic, and Ur III times. Also cp. Akk. dannum, strong, powerful. The descendants of Danu, the Danavas are known for their strength throughout the Sanskrit literature. - pg. 207

    Danavas was also the name of a Turanian tribe.

    Akk. mithaaru, adj., of equal size amount or degree equal amonut( as fine for a debt past due), square. In legistlative and administrative texts mi-it-haa-ru indicates 'same obligation', 'same share', 'fulfilment of contract', mutual compliance, mutually suitable. mithaaru, comes from mahaarum, OAkk. on.mahaarum, 1. oppose, confront, stand up to, etc. (OAkk. on); 2. turn to; 3. to receive, take, agree to (conditions) accept (a bill); take up ( a challenge); take something upon oneself, undertake a thing, assume (a change or burden); appropriate, suitable, corresponding, adequate - pg. 217

    Mithra is the angel of contracts.

    Suriya Sum. shur - Akk. saraaru "to sparkle, to shine, glitter, flash; to trickle, drop by drop" pg. 218

    Tishtriya in Avestan and its Old Persian cognate Suriya are both associated with luminaries.

    Sum. U-SA-AN = Ishtar = (gesh-dar) “goddess of evening and of morning” – pg. 218

    Ushtaran is the angel of the Dawn.

    Sum. mar-tu “storm wind” Mar-tu “name of the storm-god” mar-tu = kamaaru “to throw down, to suppress, overcome” im-MAR-Tu “western; the name of a godhead” Mar-tu-e “the lord of the mountains” = A-mur-ru. mar-tu ki “westland” A-MA-RU “name of the particular weapon” In Sargonic texts of Diyala region, there is a country name Ma-ru-utki = “land of Martu?” - 219

    Gayo-mard was the first mortal and the first mortal to die (there is a parallel to him the story of Adam as well as Cain and Able).

    Av. asha "righteousness" OPer. arta "righteousness" Skr. rta “proper, right, fit, apt, suitable” rtam “fixed or settled order, law, rule, especially in religion; sacred or pious; truth in general; righteousness, right” OB. uusu(m), ussu (Sum lw) “right path, order” Akk. Riidum, riddu(m) “(good) conduct; behavior, leadership, direction, guidance, good course, succession” – pg. 220

    9. dam, house RVX.4.6.7. dama (morn “house, home” Akk. Dadmuu “place home place of residence, domicile, all places of living” – pg. 221
    Akk. Purshum (m) LA parshu/aamu “hoary, venerable, aged” OB. MB PN pur-shu-mi 2 NA a. old servant b. ppur-sha-mu-te “the old; (c. pl.) oldest” f. pl. the grey; the basic meaning of the word seems to be connected with age, and from that (the oldest as) the source of the universe. The servant etc., are secondary usage, as in man, male. - pg. 235

    demana means house in Avestan such as in Guro-demana "house of songs" and Drugo-demana "house of the lie"

    Akk. ashu perhaps “living being or creature; animal” Vedic asuh “breath; life” RV –pg. 235

    This is like the Avestan anghu "lord" cf. Ahura, Asura

    Akk. muhhu “skull; top of the head; topside; upper part”

    NPer. mu "hair"

    Akk. shepum OB. Often siipum “foot”

    NPer. sepoy "foot soldiers"

    Sum. mah (=Akk. mahh) “high; great 2. many, numerous” attested as a loanword in Akkadian in solitary reference cited in CAD 414 - pg. 236

    Avestan mogu- "great" OPer. magush "great"

    Skr. maana “a particular measure” Akk. manu “counted” manu (v) “to count, to count and list (individual objects, animals, persons, and units of time.” – pg. 237

    Avestan Manu-cher "founder of the house of Mobads or Magi" Skr. Manu "lawgiver" (prob. the Indo-Iranian versions of Moses)
     
  17. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    It is so illogical to propose that superior civilisations of antiquity lived in any geographical locale that "was less than the best".

    Location, Location, Location ---Since time immemorial.

    The whole sub-continent of India is such prime real estate ---as far as required resources for a vast civilisation/economy goes ---that such prime reality would have been taken by the progenitors of those living there now.

    Eskimos where over taken by more sophisticated earth dweller with far distant provinance.

    New comers for the outbacks neither regions of the Himalayan Mountain Ranges started their quest from where? Mountains & arrid foothill?

    And another thing, where is the provinance to bandie about the use of the word "Aryan".

    "Aryan" is a sanskrit word. It began as a sanskrit word. It has always existed as a sanskrit word. It remains a sanskrit word. Such sanskrit word is defined with the requiste sanskrit definition. This word may be borrowed, lent or stolen ---but it remains a HINDU SANSKRIT TERM.

    The mother Tongue of the INDO-EUROPEAN Family of Languages is Sanskrit.

    The spectrum ranges from "Indo" (refers to India) to "European (Europa)" ---my research says this:
    the sanskrit words 'uru' + 'purusha' are a compond sanskrit term that abberrated to form the present word "europa"
    'uru' + 'purusha' equates to: 'wide, vast' + 'peoples'.
    Hence, Europa is a Sanskrit derived name.

    Lastly, I postulate that the known world of today especially the old-world [pre-Columbus] are as they always were. All the same trade routes and economic activities as they are seen today also existed since time-immemorial.

    Japanese have always been Japanese ... same with China ... same with Russia ... same with Finland ... Same with the Mysai ... the only seeming new innovation is the rapidness; yet I postulate that the volume of world commerce was just as large or larger during antiquity than now adays ---especially for the profit margin of the ancient brokers, Moghals & Barrons.
     
  18. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I think if we postulate the "Indo-aryans" (who wrote the vedas and moved to India)and "Iran-aryans" (who wrote the Gathas and moved to Iran) split on the steppes somewhere between 2000 and 1500 BCE we have agreement?

    The Indo-aryans were influenced by the aboriginal Indus Valley civilization and the Irano-aryans by the aboriginal Jiroft Civilization, probably. The problem is that the high Iranian Plateau (north of the Jiroft and East of the Elam sites) has never been archeologically developed in terms of early bronze age sites.

    What do you think?
     
  19. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    IMO, this is full of logical flaws.

    What historical senario documents Sophisticated Governance was imported for uncharted neither regions?

    Even the Vikings spread out from a Large base to colonise faraway unexplored areas such as green land.

    It's like saying great empires arose from migrating nomads.

    The best settled and ideal locations for establishing a metropolis would have been inhabited by design by the earliest enterprising intelligensia.

    It's like saying the new worlds in the America was best established by West indian island dwellers.

    It's like saying Borneo Tribes of anitiquity migrated to China and brought the culture we know today as Chinese.

    Land is wealth. Land is the gold standard of wealth.
    Only Masons and Quarry Men dwell in mountain areas ---landed gentry survey and cultivate agrian culture in the best locations.

    Otherwise, the postulation has actually been about Shangra-la peoples of Shambala descended from inhospitalble environs to conquer more ideal settlements ---if so, the lament is the fall of that left behind lost Capital City in the Mountains & high Foot Hills of the Himalayas.

    I say the ruling elite already had summer villas in all of the best Transcontinental areas of the old world ---from Ireland to Siberia to South Africa ---usually down by the river side ports of call.
     
  20. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Well, the same Scythian region gave rise to many, many peoples that invaded the Iranian Plateau and Europe many times (from Hellenes to Huns). These are not "mountainfolk" I am speaking about (MBS may be speaking about them). Rather it is the first horse-people who developed sometime in the early bronze age (pre 1500 BCE) in the steppes.

    Whether or not these were the same peoples who wrote the Vedas and the Gathas and moved into the Indian sub-continent and the Iranian plateau is not widely disputed. The Gathas describe the horse-riding thieves (pro-Vedic Indo-aryans) and a movement to the South south-west of those who were Zoraoastrians. The Vedas document a movement from the Hindu Kush Southeastward. Connect the two and you end up in Scythia, on the steppes.


    Now there are some both Iranian and Indian scholoars that dispute this (mainly, IMHO, hard-core nationalists)... but the hard-core evidence is there both linguistically and genetically (see "The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture: The Indo-Aryan Migration Debate", Bryant, 2001 and Ethnic India: A Genomic View, With Special Reference to Peopling and Structure) give credence to a single source for the Indo-aryans (Sanskrit speakers and high caste members) and Irano-aryans (Zorastrians remaining in Iran).
     

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