Free will is an oxymoron

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Azure24, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    Hi guys,

    About three years ago, in this forum I made a thread regarding "Free will".

    Today, I figured this is an issue that ought to be rediscussed.

    Free will is often confused with the ability to make choices, but that is not the definition of Free will. Free will is the ability to make UNCAUSED choices...this therefore makes Free will an impossibility.

    Discuss.
     
  2. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Most of us do not use "UNCAUSED". But if we did and it was limited (as causality must be) to physical causation (in science mental causation has the same validity as proof of astrology), then it is simply the case that all choices are uncaused.
     
  3. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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  4. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Free will is a divine paradox.

    or a paradox of divine porportions (the paradox extends from the most sublime to the most petty).

    We are living in a universe that is composed of 'Opposites' [ie: ying-yang; positive-negative; black-white; up-down; male-female].

    The interplay of 'Opposites' allows for extreme irony; extreme dichotomy; extreme diametrical polarity;

    The extreme-ness is born of the interplay of Duality & freewill on a level-playing-field . . . yet on a 3-D multi-tiered chessboard.

    Free-will boils down to "the endeavor".

    Do we "endeavor" toward a sublime goal;
    or do we get mucked-up in an "endeavor"
    toward a petty (inconsequential) goal?

    All in the material world is transcient and ergo, inconsequential . . . unless there is a Sublime goal strived for. Then will power is dove-tailed with 'purpose'.

    Without 'purpose' we get washed away with the cosmic tide.


    Swim! Swim hard! But which direction? ---That is the paradox.
     
  5. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    But this is impossible. The very fact that we have a choice contradicts it being "free" in the first place.

    We do, but no choice is "free" of influence.

    But you're not addressing the fact that Free will is an impossibility.

    But who put us in the sea? We can swim, but what if one decides not to?

    Then they will drown.

    Swimming or drowning...those are the choices that are imposed upon us because we are in the sea in the first place.
     
  6. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I have suggested before that the phrase 'Free Will' is defined inadequately.
    To me the idea should be 'freedom from the Will of another' - "Freedom of Will"
    but that's just the Luciferian in Me I guess.
     
  7. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    The above question is a good re-worded illustration of your OP Title.

    As per the above question, I see inherent in it a discription of our state of being & state of affairs we souls in the material world find our selves:
    The given parameters are known.
    The goal is pre-known along with optional paths.
    The circumstances allow for few operations.
    Individuality is seen as ---indivisably only himself ---in the cosmic ocean.
    Even the notion of dreams & fears are allude to ---expressing presciently the existential angst which is famously born of the question: "Why do we exist?".

    IMHO, it defines & illustrates an equation that shows the ratio of:

    The Free-Soul versus Material Elements quandry.

    Also, IMHO, it is not escapable except from 'Above' [aka, the rule that says, grace is via 'the descending method of benediction' vs. a human's idea of self-born/self-revelation].

    The grace required to be saved is something beyond our tiny control.

    As per the above question, I see inherent in it a discription of the "Human-Centric" purpose behind the Universe's reason for existing.

    We are mysteriously confined to a paradymn where the limits of our acts are predicated upon the mechanical limits of the mechanism.

    Ergo, there would seem to be a catagory of outcome that is narrowed down to acts that universally & mutally affect all our contemporaies at the same time.

    As per the above question, it also shows "Safety & Self-preservation" are quintessential to being conscious and alive.

    Don't be drift in the ocean of nescience. Transcend it ---or if Not, merge into the dark abyss.
     
  8. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    No, you are quite incorrect Azure. "Will" or "volition" is a mental event.... causation (scientifically) only applies to physical things. So I stand at the opposite from you... choices are not determined, they are free and not caused (except for internal mental states). My choices being determined is an oxymoron, not free will.
     
  9. Snoopy

    Snoopy zennish

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    What caused you to place this OP, worded as it is, in the Abrahamic sub-forum?
     
  10. Snoopy

    Snoopy zennish

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  11. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    If this is how you see it, let me ask you a question:

    Do you agree that are existence has a 100% influence in our choices?

    Yes, there is also a question on morality...if that's what you were suggesting.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  12. Snoopy

    Snoopy zennish

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    Well you didn't mention this in the OP? I was just wondering why a question on free will was placed here.

    So is the question of morality and free will only germaine to the Abrahamic faiths?

    I was also wondering if you felt you had not exercised any free will in the causing of the OP to manifest in this form on the WWW.
     
  13. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Where do you see that in your link? I don't see that anywhere, but I can attest that mythologically speaking, that Lucifer makes His debut in the Testaments as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and she will not die if she eats of the fruit of knowledge. Thus pointing Mankind in the direction of Freedom of Will.
     
  14. Snoopy

    Snoopy zennish

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    :confused:

    I was just highlighting much hinges on one's understanding of the term, exactly what it means to a person.

    'Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. The existence of free will and its exact nature and definition have long been debated in philosophy. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. Two prominent opposing positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus that free will exists (or is at least possible); and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus that free will does not exist.'
     
  15. Snoopy

    Snoopy zennish

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    Sorry just realised your confusion. I made a play on the phrase 'the devil is in the detail.'
     
  16. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    I think we know the answer to that question.

    No free will is involved...as there is a REASON (thus CAUSE) to me making this thread.
     
  17. Snoopy

    Snoopy zennish

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    So why did you not put the OP in the philosophy sub-forum?
     
  18. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

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    It hadn't occurred to me.
     
  19. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I'm not confused, maybe a dizzy from all the big words though ;)

    In any case my argument is thus; when you are truly free from the indoctrination of another's Belief System, only then are your constraints lifted and 'your' Will being executed.

    Thy Will Be Done
    My Will Be Done
     
  20. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    A reason is not a cause. A reason is a freely made choice.
     

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