Free will is an oxymoron

Azure24

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"prove it"? Isn't that a little silly? Can you prove anything you say or believe in?

Then surely it is absurd. What's next? Disabled people and those born with heart conditions chose to be born with them?

Ever hear of a mandala, or a yantra? But, you are missing my point entirely.

You can't originate a shape or form that does not exist.

Azure24, do you not believe in free will because you think  causality arising from prior conditions means whatever happens must happen (so you are a determinist) or is it because of the involvement of random chance (so you are an indeterminist)?

I believe God is Sovereign. So everything is predetermined.

I am removing myself from this discussion and this thread.
 

Snoopy

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I believe God is Sovereign. So everything is predetermined.

Now it is clear why the OP was placed in the Abrahamic sub-forum.

I am removing myself from this discussion and this thread.

As this was pre-determined I wonder why it was ever begun in the first place.
 

Azure24

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Now it is clear why the OP was placed in the Abrahamic sub-forum.

Actually it isn't. Notice this is the only thread I've posted in, which I didn't use any Scriptures.

As this is pre-determined I wonder why it was begun in the first place.

Then your understanding of predetermination is erroneous.

Just because something is predetermined it doesn't mean we should all know why something happens in the first place...

The illusion of free will still exists.
 

Snoopy

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Actually it isn't. Notice this is the only thread I've posted in, which I didn't use any Scripture

So it is still not established why you placed an OP on free will in the Abrahamic sub-forum.
 

Gatekeeper

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Hi guys,

About three years ago, in this forum I made a thread regarding "Free will".

Today, I figured this is an issue that ought to be rediscussed.

Free will is often confused with the ability to make choices, but that is not the definition of Free will. Free will is the ability to make UNCAUSED choices...this therefore makes Free will an impossibility.

Discuss.


My views are quite similar, azure. I like to use this analogy to make my point: Imagine you are on a ship and that you are the captain of that ship. Life itself is the force moving the ship forward. It pushes the ship, giving it momentum, but you are guiding the ship yourself. You are at the helm navigating your way around the ocean. Many things play a part in your decision making. A change of wind direction could motivate you to rearrange the sails for instance. Likewise, the light of a lighthouse could motivate you to change your direction in order to prevent you from hitting the rock strewn shore.


You navigate the ship the best you know how, only you do so in accordance to your circumstances, in accordance to each obstacle you face as you move forward. You ultimately guide the ship, but it is life circumstance that causes you to make changes in navigation. We are the captain of our own lives, but it is God who motivates change. God pushes us forward, whereby we are able to learn how to guide and live our lives effectively.


The reality is that there is no better teacher than the experience we gain from living. There is no better teacher than life itself. We, however, need to realize that what we do today will affect our world forever. We all serve as influences in the lives of others, so we need to be mindful of how our lives might influence those around us. Even if we are driven by circumstance, we have a responsibility to others, so surely we can take a proactive approach and do our best to influence them in a positive manner, no?


What I'm suggesting is that our lives are not set in stone. For example: Can you force your child to learn any quicker than he is capable? Maybe the same is true for God. We have no choice but to learn at our own pace and everyone is different. I failed my senior year of high school, yet years later I ended my college career with a 4.0 average. I was more mature and desired to learn. It comes down to our capabilities and what we desire from life. God can't force us to learn any quicker than we are able as individuals.


I'm not a calvinist, but I don't believe we have freewill either. We are dealt a deck of cards in life and we play them the best we are able. I think the more life we have under our belt, the easier it is to learn and recognize what we need to change about ourselves. I believe that God desires everyone to be saved, but salvation depends on our personal ability to learn from our mistakes. God places things in front of us to help, but I'm afraid some people are too darned immature and ignorant for it to do any good.


Until we gain understanding, I'm afraid we are unable to be saved. Some mature into it, while others don't. Who knows with any certainty if God has predestined ANYONE above another? I'm not a fan of Calvin, but like I stated: I don't believe in freewill either, so I'm a bit of an oddball. :sigh:
 

Bhaktajan II

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Okay, If --- "NO FREE-WILL", then, NO KARMA.

Here is my challange question:

If a captive-emprisoned person is handcuff & blind-folded ---the prisoner should NOT exercise the 'free-will' to escape. The Prisoner who thinks of "escaping" is delusional. Yes?


I guess, free-will only means, "The desire & the ability to ESCAPE".

"No Escape" ergo, "No Free-will"

If Escape is possible; ergo, free-will is possible ... unless the refuge sought is actually another emprisoning trap.

Escape from Trap(s) = free-will/freedom.

No Free-will = no freedom.
 

seattlegal

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Then surely it is absurd. What's next? Disabled people and those born with heart conditions chose to be born with them?



You can't originate a shape or form that does not exist.



I believe God is Sovereign. So everything is predetermined.

I am removing myself from this discussion and this thread.

Does God have free-will?
 

Bhaktajan II

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Then surely it is absurd. What's next? Disabled people and those born with heart conditions chose to be born with them?

Yes. The free-will to make bad-choices ---that affect one own self, for a lifetime. What is so hard to grasp here?

The culmination of the acts require 'a lesson' of a life time to ammend for a past lifetime's actions.

You can't originate a shape or form that does not exist.

"All forms exist" ---all that is needed next is a Soul to animate the form. That requires canidates to fill the post.

I believe God is Sovereign. So everything is predetermined.

I do NOT believe this is something you believe is true.
I do believe you are fighting some issue where you are rationalising that "pre-determination" is to blame ---rather than, past Karma (past acts).

The Present condition is a direct progression of past activites and thus, level of Consciousness.

I am removing myself from this discussion and this thread.
Apparently, your intellectual accumen is limited to 'sentimentality'.

Intellectual pursuits require real brain initiative.
 

Azure24

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Look guys. I have a very important essay to complete...

...yet, I just can't resist. Please stop asking questions...

Does God have free-will?

God has consigned Himself to His own will. God has and continues to make prophecies...God has and WILL do many things that He says He will do.

ALL the Bible (and Scriptures) are CONNECTED.

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).

Concerning the future God says this:

"Declaring the END from the BEGINNING, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE..." (Isa 46:10).

Not "might do", not "should do", not "could do"...."WILL DO" His PLEASURE.

What is God's PLEASURE?

"who will have ALL MEN to be SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4).

So...

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially [though NOT exclusively] of those that believe." (1 Tim 2:4 )

and finally this...

"My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL My pleasure.

I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass.

I have purposed it, I WILL also do it"
(Isaiah 46:10-11).
 

Azure24

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Please...just leave my posts as they are (my previous threads on this subject lasted over ten pages). I don't have the time (nor the patience) to take this discussion further....I have an essay to complete.

However, your contribution to this thread is very well appreciated (not just by me I'm sure). In fact, EVERYONE'S contribution is appreciated...discussions and arguments breeds wisdom (hopefully for some at least).

Yes. The free-will to make bad-choices ---that affect one own self, for a lifetime. What is so hard to grasp here?
The culmination of the acts require 'a lesson' of a life time to ammend for a past lifetime's actions.

Yes, this makes sense. But Etu Malku didn't mention a past life.

"All forms exist" ---

My point exactly.

I do NOT believe this is something you believe is true.
I do believe you are fighting some issue where you are rationalising that "pre-determination" is to blame ---rather than, past Karma (past acts).

The Present condition is a direct progression of past activites and thus, level of Consciousness.

Nothing is to "blame"...God is not at FAULT here. Disability isn't necessarily a bad thing....even though the interpretation of it is.

Your argument does makes more sense. However, to me this doesn't change anything. What if one wanted to make "said" past decisions and STILL wanted to be "normal" (no consequence for past actions)?

Apparently, your intellectual accumen is limited to 'sentimentality'.

Intellectual pursuits require real brain initiative.

I appreciate your point here, though it may seem so, I'm not being sentimental.

I realise these discussions are not about "I'm right, you're wrong". But Stating a belief and seeing whether it stands firm under scrutiny.

I also realise this is not scrutiny of one's character but rather their (current-----as beliefs are subject to change) beliefs. Which therefore is not personal.

I'm not being sentimental...I'm just very busy.

I realise this discussion has great potential to reach up to 20 pages...I however, cannot go that far.
 

Etu Malku

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What do you think, you're the only one busy here? LOL . . . essay!
 

radarmark

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Yeah... my bride just sprained her ankle really, really badly. That is why I have been missing (with horses to care for on top of work, gets "iffy").

It (free will) is a matter of degrees. Not to have it at all, like calvinist predestination (like Einstein or Azure think) simply renders out life meaningless. I know I can will my ring finger to type this "O", as I know that Chr!st Jesus wants me to live a just life (in accordance with our Quaker Testimonies). From my experience I know this. I know this experimentally (if you will).

Calvinism, like solipsism, is an unrefutable thesis. I just choose (!) not to pay it any heed. If G!d is so petty (that is what I would call a human being who created such a self-fulfilling prophecy) as to trick me into thinking I had (at least limited) free will and had already determined my fate here-after, I want nothing of H!m or H!r.
 

seattlegal

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Yeah... my bride just sprained her ankle really, really badly. That is why I have been missing (with horses to care for on top of work, gets "iffy").

It (free will) is a matter of degrees. Not to have it at all, like calvinist predestination (like Einstein or Azure think) simply renders out life meaningless. I know I can will my ring finger to type this "O", as I know that Chr!st Jesus wants me to live a just life (in accordance with our Quaker Testimonies). From my experience I know this. I know this experimentally (if you will).

Calvinism, like solipsism, is an unrefutable thesis. I just choose (!) not to pay it any heed. If G!d is so petty (that is what I would call a human being who created such a self-fulfilling prophecy) as to trick me into thinking I had (at least limited) free will and had already determined my fate here-after, I want nothing of H!m or H!r.

Yep. Love can't be forced. If it's not freely given, it ain't the real thing. Besides, what could be more precious to an omnipotent being than some thing genuine and real that is not dependent upon that being's omnipotence? I mean really, how does God know we are not just a construct of God's omnipotent mind--ie, illusion?
 

Azure24

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It (free will) is a matter of degrees. Not to have it at all, like calvinist predestination (like Einstein or Azure think) simply renders out life meaningless.

Explain.

I know I can will my ring finger to type this "O", as I know that Chr!st Jesus wants me to live a just life (in accordance with our Quaker Testimonies). From my experience I know this. I know this experimentally (if you will).

You can type with your ring finger BECAUSE God gave you a ring finger...He has also caused you not to lose it (in an accident for example).
You know Jesus Christ wants you to live just because God put you in a location and a period of time (year) where it is available to you. This and many, many other "little" causes...

If G!d is so petty (that is what I would call a human being who created such a self-fulfilling prophecy) as to trick me into thinking I had (at least limited) free will and had already determined my fate here-after, I want nothing of H!m or H!r.

You simply don't understand the nature of God then.
 

Azure24

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Yep. Love can't be forced. If it's not freely given, it ain't the real thing...

You contradict yourself. You say Love can't be forced (even though God NEVER forces anything)...then you imply it is GIVEN....

What if Love isn't GIVEN? How then will we have it?
 

radarmark

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I thought it rather clear. Your argument seems Calvinist, based on predestination and the-will-of- G!d. Einstein had a little theory called "Block Universe" or "Block Time (see Time Theory - Einstein`s fault). Same thing, a perfectly determined future. I reject both as unprovable, cruel hoaxes.

We Quakers rejected that about 1650. If anything, George Fox was reacting to the "extreme Puritanism" of the Geneva Protestants.

You can type with your ring finger BECAUSE God gave you a ring finger...He has also caused you not to lose it (in an accident for example).
You know Jesus Christ wants you to live just because God put you in a location and a period of time (year) where it is available to you. This and many, many other "little" causes...

No I know J!sus loves me because H! has told me so (we believe in the experience of G!d directly). You see, there is no "cause" for me making that decision (as the vast majority use that word, and certainly philosophers see Causality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or scientists http://www.nyu.edu/classes/shrout/SEM06/pearl.pdf great lecture I was lucky enough to attend). For us, "cause" means "sufficient and necessary cause". Like If you have dry tender, oxygen, and a flame, you get fire. A fire is caused by all three being brought together (by G!d or man).

You simply don't understand the nature of God then.

See, the problem is your judgement (prejudices, interpretation, ideology... take your pick) here. I understand my G!d. No, I do not understand your conception thereof, I admit that. Predestination, if it is true (it could be I admit), is a cruel joke on humanity. Not one worthy of what I consider G!d.

See, one must admit multiple definitions of G!d and Scripture and Chr!st Jesus. Is one of them true? Perhaps, I just do not know which, so accept them all as opinions or belief. But when I test them against things like love and justice and kindness, the traditional Protestant (specifically Lutheran or Cavinist) one falls far short of deserving (in my opinion, which is really all that counts, remember, "free will") my belief as true.
 

radarmark

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Yep. Love can't be forced. If it's not freely given, it ain't the real thing. Besides, what could be more precious to an omnipotent being than some thing genuine and real that is not dependent upon that being's omnipotence? I mean really, how does God know we are not just a construct of God's omnipotent mind--ie, illusion?

The important things, things of value (to us and the world), like love, truth, justice, kindness (no, not "the American Way") are offerings from ourselves to that which is higher (G!d or the D!vine). Offing it because of pressure or the promise of another world, IMHO, like predestination is a cruelk hoax played on us, H!s Creation. Like Kazantzakis says, G!d needs us to come back to H!m (find our original face), H! needs our worship.
 
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