Can anybody make heads or tails out of this?

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine, May 12, 2012.

  1. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    Walker explains divide, conquer strategy - Yahoo! News

    This is what Garnet and I are dealing with here in Wisconsin.

    I need some clearheaded people who can help me understand what the fook is going on here so I can make the best use of my vote come 5, June.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  2. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm not American...

    Is it not sufficient to choose, if you want to vote, between the Democrat and Republican, rather than sweating the small stuff?
     
  3. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    The "small stuff" has literally torn families apart. Hell, my friend Tyler can't speak with his grandparents due to Walker's economic platform (and he was rather close to them before this.) Hell, it's more divisive than the "who can get married" issue around here.

    Besides, it has everything to do with why we're having this election (not Democrats vs. Republicans.) There was even talk about this last year during the protests in Madison.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Despite the news, rhetoric and supposed non partisanship...we've moved on from Dem/GOP quite a while ago. Both parties are heavily supported by corporate interests and th corporations often spread the wealth in both parties....irregardless they know the fickle and ADD American public can't stay anywhere long so the pendelum continually swings back and forth and since the two party system is entrenched, over the course of a decade or two they will be able to influence the future to benefit their long range corporate plans....

    Tis Oz we live in, a land of smoke and mirrors and folks behind the curtains pulling strings....keep the public fat and happy with beer and circus (recession? just broke another record with opening weekend movie ticket sales...)
     
  5. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

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    Phyllis, the macroeconomics surrounding this issue are getting easier to understand, because Econ is growing up. Free trade is very important to us economically, the thing that really needs protection from all lobbyists and regulators.

    Two things are happening:

    • Corporations are lobbying to reduce their costs, reduce their taxes and to get their products subsidized and to protect them from all kinds of competition. Sponsoring candidates is usually part of that lobbying process.
    • Unions lobby the government to subsidize certain kinds of jobs and pressure corporations to act paternally. They demand 'Fair' wages. They sponsor and endorse candidates as well.
    Both claim you hurt the economy if you don't support their positions.

    Unions:
    The truth is that unions don't help the economy long term, but they do help people (their workers only) in the short term. In the long term unions reduce the wealth of workers in the country despite the increased pay of a union member (but not by that much). What's bad about them is they tend to lobby for tariffs and quotas (=bad), a bit like corporations do. They also resist innovation, preferring to keep everything as-is. That is why they amount to a negative overall because the only healthy economy is a growing one which is a dynamic one. That doesn't make corporations the good guys.

    Lobbying corporations:
    Lobbying corporations would benefit from no union interference as would people in general long term, but the problem is the corporations won't stop there. They will use their lobby to subsidize their products, introduce tariffs and regulate away competition of smaller businesses. These will hurt the economy more than a union could. A corporation will use its lobby to do all kinds of unethical things, like install video cameras in employee bathrooms and track employees like animals (with radiotags) after work and tell employees what to think and who to vote for. Basically, powerful corporations are insane, and they dehumanize people. That does not make unions the 'Good guys', but it makes them the current underdog.

    We need as many political players in place as possible, because it allows us to pit the demons against each other. Keep everything dynamic like a king does with his nobles. The unions help to keep the corporations sane, though they themselves often seem insane. Its a balancing act to keep everyone out of the taxpayer's pocket and from indirectly costing us by tariffs or by making life suck. The situation is dynamic. For now I'd support the unions, though there may be times when the unions and corporations gang up on taxpayers.
     
  6. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I kinda-sorta agree with Dream. But have some non-economic values to add. Corporations (for the most part) are shackeld with two things: a built in bias to deliver on the bottom line (think strictly in terms of economic profit) and support for the wealthy (while more of the public now own parts of corporations, it is still the top 1% ers who own most of the corporations). Unions (esp public emplyeee unions) have a bias towards their membership (this is their economic profit) and support for the middle class (those that make up the union membership).

    The economic factors all come out in the wash (per Dream's analysis). It is the non-economic factors (whom each side supports) that really matter. The choice the, in non-ecomic terms, comes down to "super-rich" versus "middle-class" values. The poor (those making less than meidan income minus a sigma or so) have very little skin in this game because either the unions steal through taxes to support their constituents or the wealthy steal through corporate greed (they pay a smaller percentage of income in taxes and cost the public more by tax incentives or Wal-Mart insurance scams (employees put on public assistance)).

    As my Dad, who was one of the last blue-collar State Committee members of the California Republican Party (the Earl Warren party, not the Dick Nixon party) used to say (as a pre union Post Office Employee somewhat more than one sigma down), "I support the middle-class because I can make it there, but I will never be as rich as a Crocker".

    My own opinion is kinds utilitarian--which side provides the most benefit for the largest number? Again, it is the union side that wins.
     
  7. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercur├Žn Buddhist

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    I government (state and local) the single largest employer in your state?
     
  8. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    I'm not sure. I can find out later today or sometime tomorrow (I'm seeing my friends Tyler and America today, and they have a vested interest in this whole situation since she works for the local public university as faculty.)

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  9. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    If you are in Wisconsin, six six of the ten largest employers are state/federal/local government entities, it is a pretty safe bet they are the largest emplyer.
     
  10. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    Wowwwwww.....

    The US and the UK really are in different political universes. I know the words you're speaking are English but...
     
  11. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    Torn families apart...can't speak with his grandparents....
    Nope, sorry... I don't know how you get to that ...
    People are giving up on politics in the UK. I think voting may have to be made compulsory so a pretence of engagement can be demonstrated. We've not cared about the sh1t politician's lie to us about for a good while...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mobileweb/stephen-twigg/the-governments-political_b_973753.html

    'In this year's Hansard Society audit of political engagement, only 30 per cent of those surveyed agreed that they can change the way the UK is run by getting involved in politics at a national level. A survey published last week by the Committee for Standards in Public Life has shown that public confidence in MPs has fallen from 46 per cent to 26 per cent.'
     
  12. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Snoopy--

    Like religion and conspiracies, we Yanquis take our politics very seriously. Way too seriously, IMHO. The notion of "shoot from the hip" applies to all three. And one does not have to worry about nicities like proof or reason. Welcome to the Wild Wild West, old chum!
     
  13. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    You certainly do! We look with bemusement at all the fervent cheering at your political gatherings. I don't know to what degree it is orchestrated (?) but you get nothing like that here. (maybe Tony Bliar got that kind of enthusiasm when he first won, but that's the last time we fell for it...)
     
  14. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    We take our politics more seriously than you guys seem to take your football. I take it seriously because whatever decisions are made in Madison affect not only me (Tovarish, Tomodachi and Maneki are affected, too.) Then, there iare my friends Tyler and America who are affected (America because she works for the public university as a member of the faculty, Tyler because he's America's husband.)

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  15. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    @Phyllis,

    Seriousness and engagement are different. Increasing numbers of Brits (as per my quote) are disengaged from the main parties because we've seen them for what they are, but we still get riled up. In the last few years politicians, police, journalists have all been publicly shown to be corrupt. So politicians are viewed as selfish, as liars, and we already knew they are in the pockets of interest groups. It's a sham. It's an elective dictatorship. The ideology is all but gone: do we want a middle class manager or a middle class manager?

    You have a choice? OK don't vote for the capitalist.
     
  16. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Snoopy, we are all good Kapitalists nowdays! No one is going to run as anything else (well, and expect to win). The difference transmutes into two types of Kapitalist: the "Laffer Kapitalist" (someone who fell for the Laffer curve and belives in what I consider Corporate Welfarism) versus the "Smith Kapitalist" (someone who reads the Wealth of Nations as an appendix to The Theory of Moral Sentiments).
     
  17. Snoopy

    Snoopy Well-Known Member

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    Reduce the options and you reduce participation.

    I'm voting SYRIZA!
     
  18. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    Cthulhu's starting to look like the best candidate in the governor's race.

    :kitty:s are looking best for the presidential race (puppies for vice president [I'm not a speciesist.].)

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  19. DrumR

    DrumR Well-Known Member

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    Greetings, Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine.

    I had written, some years ago, a response to a thread concerning a singular issue where aspects of various media forms and their audiences were outlined. Those comments have not suffered sufficient change.

    Recent events, with the so-called "ninety-nine percent" issue, have involved the INTERNET most heavily and contain much in the way of slogans and rampant emotionalism with little, if any, reason to support the arguments presented. Key concepts remain undefined so that a serious discussion of the manifold issues may not long endure without it devolving into name-calling and mud-slinging which, in most cases, end up biased along emotional appeals to lines drawn upon the shifting sands of the headless body politic. The infirm footing of the 99% issue alone has revamped itself to be now known as the 1% issue or, as it may be seen, from "us" to "them" thereby re-directing the focus and with it the burden of proof of further discussions concerning that particular issue.

    Such appears to be the operating principals of U.S.A politics today.

    With that mentioned is should serve as a reminder that an informed and reasoned voting population is that which was envisioned by the Founders of this Nation and that, even at the outset, they also had their doubts.

    So the best advice that I might offer, for this and future political conundrums, is to obtain as much information on both sides of the issue, examine and adopt the denoted definition of the word "reason," then apply one's innate critical thinking abilities to reduce the so-called complex issues into their constituent parts, weight the outcomes, re-assemble the ensuing mess into to something one may act upon, in good conscience, with the focus being placed upon how it will effect, in both the short and long term (to include future generations), one's fellow countrymen both pro and con.

    But, then again, one may flip a coin or ignore the whole mess entirely.

    As for me,
    "It matters not what course others may take,"
    I shall have a cup of tea.
     
  20. DrumR

    DrumR Well-Known Member

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    By the Bye, , Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine.

    It is a most daunting task to search for clear-headed people in the midst of the Cold and Flu season.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012

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