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Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Ben Masada, May 25, 2012.

  1. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    AN ITEM OF THE NEW COVENANT - PART 1

    According to Jeremiah 31:31, a New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one nation soon after the return of the Jewish People from exile in Babylon. (Ezek. 37:22)

    An item of that Covenant would be the end of the prophetic system in the History of Israel, according to Daniel 9:24, where we read that vision and prophecy would be sealed up, ended, finished.

    The role of the prophets throughout the History of Israel was that of the go-between God and man, as men were taught by the prophets how to know the Lord and to behave according to His will.

    According to Jeremiah 31:34, prophets would be no longer necessary to teach men to know the Lord because, they would all know Him from the least of them to the greatest by way of the Scriptures.

    This New Covenant that the Lord would make with Israel after those days - the 70 years in Babylon - the Law would be written in their inward parts, in their own hearts, in terms of the easy availability made so by the technology Ezra had made possible in Babylon by producing the written text of the Scriptures. Hence the text in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 that goes as the following:

    "For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither it is far off. It is not in heaven that you should say: Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? Neither it is beyond the sea, that you should say: Who shall go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may do it? But the Word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

    The bottom line is that, given the evidence that the prophetic system was over with the New Covenant, any one, from then on, with the claim of prophecy or of being a prophet becomes tantamount to being a false prophet. It means that a Jewish person is justified to deny acknowledgment of any prophetic claim within the perimeters of Judaism. However, we do not discard the claim of prophets by other cultures or religions, as long as no connections with Judaism is claimed.

    Ben
     
  2. showme

    showme New Member

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    Well I kind of thought that the other day that you claimed the God had revealed some insight of some sort to you. If that wasn't done by the Spirit of prophecy, then what Spirit gave you that insight? And if God has given you a new Spirit according to Ez 11:19, what kind of Spirit is that? What kind of Spirit does a prophet have, and what kind of Spirit is Ez 11:19 speaking of? And how can I discern what kind of "Spirit" you would have leading you? And if Jer 31:34 is fulfilled, are you saying that God has forgiven the iniquities of the House of Israel and the House of Judah? If so, why did the Inquisition still have the power to exile, and exterminate jews? How come Hitler was so powerful in killing jews if their iniquities had been forgiven? Personally, I think your insight isn't matching history.
     
  3. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    Ben, I thank you very kindly for that....

    I will approach this in a novel way ( for me )....

    I will not try to tie my understanding into Historical Reality - with it's own unique viewpoint - I will simply speak my questions to you and use what little history I can to tie it together.......

    Could it be possible, do you think, that their might have been a genetic meaning to being "chosen" by the Israelite's God?
    What I mean is this: I have found specific reason in my spiritual exercises to believe in the benefit of Ritual Purity. ( not exactly as I understand Jewish practice today - but historically...)
    Also, I have found a direct correlation to experiences during my spiritual exercises, with descriptions in Judaic Literature.
    and again- I have the sneaking suspicion that there just might be a genetic component as well ( to what , we will get to in a moment ) to being a "Jew" as described by Jesus much later...

    Now - this genetic component I am referring to would be a predisposition to psychic ability..... ( coulda heard a pin drop..... :) .... )
    Reinforced by the practice of marrying other Jews ( with the same genetic predisposition... )This predispostion developed because of their UNIQUE habit of focusing on their God and "watching" over extended periods of time.... thousands of years....

    now consider all the mentions, not just of Prophets, but those using such abilities for bad.... the many,many mentions.......

    It WAS a fact of life, but the term"psychic" hadn't been invented as a label of scorn... they were polarized into those focused on God, and those not.....

    and occasionally would come one who had done all the hard work to have a Direct Divine connection in the flesh.... receiving "Pure" messages....

    and they would warn the people how they needed the purity for ALL of Israel, that the people were falling away from their Path..... It even becomes standard operating procedure after a while that there are separate rules regarding purity for the people and priest craft..... and the Prophets disappear...

    Now, I have these experiences viewing these "Supercharged" Jewish Prophets, engaged in behaviors which can only be described as Full On Psychics - Healing folks, seeing the future with no doubts, turning sticks into snakes for crying out loud......

    and then I find stuff like the Zohar....
    then I buy Louis Ginzberg's collection of the Mishnah, and read some stories that just make me suspicious as hell......

    I ask you: why is this picture so detestable to Jews?
    Why do i see a REALITY of being a Chosen People, and find those chosen folks think I'm straight out nuts for even considering what i see all over the place?

    Now, i'm just curious - got no particular bias one way or the other. It's nothing that's gonna make much difference to me anyway ( my experiences, while sometimes hard to decipher, usually begin to come clear )- it's not, by far, the strangest of my experiences.... but I gotta tell you - there was not much doubt left in my mind.... so I do want to at least ASK a few Jews....

    (and i'm not saying the predisposition STILL exists... I believe that the Christ's visit gave that benefit equally from that point on... and the Jews had turned to weeding that predisposition out... )

    Why, specifically, do i get more than the average "edging away" from me by Jews? almost as if I am suggesting something damning... :)
     
  4. showme

    showme New Member

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    The jews probably edge away from you because you use 1000 words to say something when a short paragraph would do, and in the end, your points are somewhat hazy. It is like changing the channels on a radio station when you find they play rap. But then again, this is a simple observation from a third party.
     
  5. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    :) thanks. since this is an entirely new method of approaching subjects for me, I will consider your words...

    but, thank your for your simple observation..

    so you would recommend a simple flat statement with no detail?
    you would consider this something that could be covered in how many words?

    you understand what I am saying well enough to judge the proper amount of words - where's your contribution here?
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    The 'new' covenant with Israel is a necessity brought about by the intransigence of the people with regard to following the Way of the Lord (cf Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.)

    According to the historical and archaeological evidence, 'the return from exile' was not taken up universally, as many had settled and were living quite comfortable lives where they now were, thank you very much, so although a New Covenant was offered, it was breached, much like its predecessors.

    Just a thought ...

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  7. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    agreed - and it is recorded in the Quran that second temple sacrifices were refused.... the lil red string from the scapegoat story....
     
  8. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    First of all, I did not claim that God had revealed to me anything. I said, "Perhaps by Divine inspiration, when I was asked where had I got the idea for another alternative to the message of John 3:16."

    I do not understand your question about the Inquisition having power to exile and exterminate Jews. First, we don't have Inquisition anymore. And then, what power has any nation or institution today to exterminate Jews? Perhaps the atomic bomb from Iran? They would not live to see the works of their hands because we would finish with them even before we all died out.

    Now, for your question about Hitler, one does not die or is killed because of his or her iniquities. We all die because we have been born. That's the natural law of genesis and destruction; aka, birth and death.
    Ben
     
  9. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Hey Brother, very scholastic post with a beautiful choice of worlds. But the only thing I have to tell you for the moment, is that God did not choose us. We chose God. Since we took it seriously, we have become known as God's chosen People. All started with Abraham, when he found out and developed the monotheistic concept of the real God, Creator of the universe.
    Ben
     
  10. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    You are right about the fact that the return from exile was not taken up universally, as many had settled and were living quite comfortable lives where they were. No wonder only a very small remnant chose to return from Babylon. (Isa. 10:22) As soon as the Babylonian Government realized the kind of human material the Jews were made of, these were given all the benefits to grow and they became so prosperous that life couldn't be better to live than in exile. The same phenomenon is true to this very day throughout the Diaspora.
    Ben
     
  11. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    From Showme:
    And if Jer 31:34 is fulfilled, are you saying that God has forgiven the iniquities of the House of Israel and the House of Judah? If so, why did the Inquisition still have the power to exile, and exterminate jews? How come Hitler was so powerful in killing jews if their iniquities had been forgiven? Personally, I think your insight isn't matching history.

    This the kind of comment that gives us believing Christians a bad name. Of course Jeremiah is fulfilled... why else are Jews still here?

    Not G!d but the Adversary ("The Devil" or "Satan" in the sense I explained "Prophecy of the Scapegoat") is the reason Christians have chosen to persecute the Jews. Oh, and each other (Quakers and Mennonites were extinct in the Third Reich).
     
  12. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    Just wanted to acknowledge this..... from the ( more or less accepted ) date of Abraham's life - approx 2000BC it was the habit of Jews to witness and record all the interactions their God had with them.... and this was mainly done by recording the words of Prophets....
    Agreed again - Abraham is seen as bringing the "first word" on the matter.... but a succession of prophets continued the metamorphosis... until folks were thoroughly tired of the prophets telling them what they were doing wrong - and stopped "recognizing" them...
     
  13. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    I am sorry, but I surely do not understand you on this one.
     
  14. showme

    showme New Member

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    We still have the Council of Inquisition, it just changed its' name to the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith". They exiled 40,000 jews from Spain alone. Some of these jews wound up in New Spain, and remain hidden among the Gentiles to this day. And these councils reign and have reigned past the point where the House of Israel was exiled. The only problem with the Councils of today, is they no longer have the state support for their unfettered urges to burn away what they consider chaff.

    We mostly all die due to transgression of the Law. Adam died the day he ate from the tree of life (Gen 2:17). For 1 day is as a thousand years, and Adam died at 930 years of age. On the other hand, Enoch lived righteously and never died, the same for Elijah.

    As for Judah being free from discipline, I think not. God's chastisement on the House of Judah is not complete. Joel 2:2-32,...for the day of the Lord is coming:..a day of darkness and gloom...I will pour my Spirit on all mankind;and your sons and daughters will prophesy,...for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape,...." At that time Judah will gather the people and pray to God for deliverance.

    As for Israel looking to their own strength to keep them safe, I suggest you heed what happen because of pride according to Is 9:8-13.
     
  15. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky New Member

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    I have to believe you when you say so with such flatness.

    But what is the UNIQUE character of Jewish belief?
     
  16. showme

    showme New Member

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    Jeremiah 31:34 is primarily about them knowing the Lord and not having to be taught. This hasn't happened for the House of Judah, otherwise they would not have Rabbis. It certainly hasn't happened to Pauline "Christians" who have teachers without number. Iniquities were simply an add on at the end of the paragraph, but of course, the iniquites haven't been forgotten either.
     
  17. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    You are entitled to that opinion. Rebbes are Jews, also. And I believe that the Orthodox (and others) do pretty well in "knowing the L!rd". Perhaps a bit like us Quakers and less like your group.

    What, did the L!rd keep Jews around knowing they did not know H!m and then intentionally have them persecuted? That seems where your line of reasing ends up.
     
  18. showme

    showme New Member

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    Calling oneself a Quaker is somewhat nebulous. There are only around 86,000 in the whole of the U.S. I have only known two, and one, though very nice, apparently commited suicide. The other is a phychological wreck, who has no more concept of what is in the bible than the rabbits who try and eat from my garden. President Nixon, appears to have been a Quaker, and although an effective president, seemed to have more demons than he could deal with.

    The Lord blesses the House of Judah, and the House of Israel, not for their knowledge of Him, but because of their father Abraham.

    As referenced in Jeremiah 16:18, the Lord will doubly repay Israel for their iniquities before they are fully returned to their land. Although according to Ze 12, the Lord will will make the clans of Judah a firepot among pieces of wood for those who gather against it. This historically can be seen in the Israeli war of 1967. The problem is that the war against Israel is not finished. Per Ze 14:2, the nations will be gathered against Israel, and the city will be captured, and half the city exiled, and then the Lord will fight, and the Lord will be king over all the earth; and the plague which the Lord will strike the people who have gone to war against Jerusalem will be their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets. This is the same description of the affect witnessed at Hiroshema. None of this has been fully fulfilled.

    Jeremiah 31:34 says that "they shall not teach each other". Not that they teach other effectively.
     
  19. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Oh my goodness. It is not my fault you are not familiar with the Religious Society of Friends. I would (once again) suggest a little research before you reply here, it could help you stay on target.

    First of all get a good Masoretic text, your interpretation of each of these verses differ quite a bit from the original Hebrew (in context). Rebbe or Rabbi comes from רבי meaning (roughly) "My Master" implying "of Torah". It implies one who knows, not teaches. So you entire line of reasoning is suspect.
     
  20. showme

    showme New Member

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    Showme response in red: Like I said before, the term Quaker is nebulous. Quakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    A quote from widipedia: Quakers today are theologically diverse: mostly regarded as Christian, they include those with evangelical, holiness, liberal and traditional Quaker understandings of Christianity. From the end of the 20th century, small but vocal groups of Friends with Christian atheist[5] or universalist beliefs have emerged.

    I have personally only known two Quakers, and one supposedly commited suicide, and the other is a phycholocical basket case, who would treat the bible as a vampire would treat holy water. A third, who I didn't personally know, was president Nixon, and he seemed to be overwhelmed by his own personal demons. You, a professed Quaker, seem to be overwhelmed by a personal need to support doctrines which you profess not to hold, and a church you supposedly do not belong to.


    As for your obfusication with the term of Rabbi, whether you choose to use the term master or teacher, it makes no difference. No one is to be called Rabbi (Mt 23:8), and One is your teacher (Mt 23:8) and that is the Spirit of God. The essence being that no man is above another. There is only one Father (Mt 23:9), and that is God the Father, and there is only one leader (Mt 23:10), and that is Yeshua. Your dead church "father", would not be listed among these, and he is not to be considered above others.
     

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