Faith versus Certainty

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by radarmark, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    If the opposite of faith is certainty, then in this context, the opposite of love is smug. I read that at "Deliver us from Smugness" by Falsani (posted 5-31-2012).

    I think this is an important topic. Does having faith mean having doubt? Certainly J!sus in the Garden can be interpreted to imply this.

    Why do we (I do include myself, arrogance is one of my many vices) have to resort to yelling over religion or politics? 'Tis the original sin here in the USA.

    I used to be oh, so smug about the (what I called) semitic hair-splitting and repetitions, for example, Arafat denying the existence of the Temple. Like I thought he thought by repeating that old line enough times All!h would hear him and make it true. Same with Bloody Sharon.

    Now I realize that the (what I think are) important issues, like love and faith, G!d, and being are never "knowable" or "certain" in any rational way (that is, using reason). They are metaphysical issues that just are.

    Best handled by us all sitting down in one big tipi, smoking the pipe of peace together, sweating together, and sharing stories with each other.

    "Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
    Trouble no one about his religion.
    Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours.
    Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life.
    Seek to make your life long and of service to your people.
    Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide.
    Always give a word or sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend,
    or even a stranger, if in a lonely place.
    Show respect to all people, but grovel to none.
    When you rise in the morning, give thanks for the light,
    for your life, for your strength.
    Give thanks for your food and for the joy of living.
    If you see no reason to give thanks, the fault lies in yourself.
    Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools
    and robs the spirit of its vision.
    When your time comes to die,
    be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death,
    so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time
    to live their lives over again in a different way.
    Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home."

    Tekoomse (Panther Amongst the Stars) as related by his descendents.
     
  2. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    In Buddhism, faith is related to will (intention) and the karma generated by that intention. (You generate excitement within your mind about what you are going to to.) Of course, if your faith/intention is based upon greed, hate, or delusion, that can generate long-term harm for both yourself and those around you.
     
  3. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Okay. What is relationship of will and karma to certainty? Will can be led astray (like your example) so it is not certain, either. Karma... as the ultimate form or cause and effect, it is certain, however our opinion about what our karma is can be, again, led astray.

    So faith, intention, and "belief about karma" are all uncertain (can be wrong or partially wrong). Certainty and karma are not.

    Am I not getting it?
     
  4. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    Karma is uncertain in its action (like quantum effects) is my current understanding. You cannot trace the precise outworkings beforehand.
     
  5. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Okay. I think I covered that with saying "belief about karma" or "opinion about what our karma is", but I bow to your greater knowledge.
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    oops! :eek:

    You are right! It is belief about karma! My bad! :eek:

    I was confused by this part:
    If you define karma as the ultimate form of cause and effect, then wouldn't it also have to have uncertainty in it, as some cause/effect (like quantum effects) is uncertain in nature? (We are getting into belief again! :eek: )
     
  7. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    I am not sure... Quantum would have fuzz, karma I dunno:confused:. Like the original posting says, these "metaphysical issues" are certainly the fun ones. To be consistent, I think you are right, karma would have to be quantized.:D

    That leads to a really obscure point. If like the Buddha, Laozi, and Whitehead we postulate some rudimentary consciousness or prehension for a quantum partucle (like an electron) would it then have some kind of basic karma?:eek:
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    Like quantum tunneling is intentional? :eek:

    *my brain hurts*
     
  9. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Perhaps, if quantum mechanics is really all there is (a very "hard" view of the Copenhagen Interpretation). Quantum "interconnectedness" or "superposition" or "entanglement" (that which gives rise to quantum "wierdness") if true and not hypothecized away (by creating 12 or 26 dimension or a infinate number of parallel universes--which can never been been or proved to exist) would imply quantum tunneling could be choice on the part of the particle.

    Not saying that is the only explanation, but it would be entirely consistent in my opinion. That does hurt my head as well (and mine is real real hard, if you have not noticed).
     
  10. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    Pass the pipe.
     
  11. Snoopy

    Snoopy Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,289
    Likes Received:
    21
    One should indeed have great faith and great doubt. Both are needed in the endeavour of our lives.
     
  12. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,635
    Likes Received:
    110
    Don't forget the great coffee! ;)
     

Share This Page