Worship God, Not Religion

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by Persona, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I create a rope and a knot to hold the tent up. Do I require it meet with me? I do require it to work (? as bb says??)

    I create a group, a theater group, a company.... I do require they meet, do require they obey (to various levels) depending on ego may require they worship, and do require they work.

    service....hmmm
     
  2. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I do not know.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I think we are required to be....
     
  4. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    "We"? Required to be what? By Whom?
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    we....us.....to exist....to be....
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Might I point out that in the Christian Tradition, the images that exemplify the relationship are those of nuptial or filial union, although this is not a relation of equals, but a relation of grace.

    I can't speak for other traditions, but from what little I know, the relationship of the Divine to the human is never at the cost of the dignity of the latter.

    Certainly one who is unused to or unaware of the ideas, concepts, principles and so forth might find such postures as hands held in prayer, prostrations, the rocking of the Jew, the whirling of the Dervish, the dances in various native traditions, to be somewhat demeaning, but then one has to factor in the over-blown self-worth of the West which is locked into its ego-cult.

    (And considering how westerners react towards consumer goods and technologies, I think responses to God are the least of our worries)

    Again, you will find Uriah Heeps in every tradition, but one should not let that define them.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Sweet Loraine, let the party carry on!
     
  8. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    From ChuangTzu section 2

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The torch of chaos and doubt - this is what the sage steers by.11 So he does not use things but relegates all to the constant. This is what it means to use clarity.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now I am going to make a statement here. I don't know whether it fits into the category of other people's statements or not. But whether it fits into their category or whether it doesn't, it obviously fits into some category. So in that respect it is no different from their statements. However, let me try making my statement.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be a beginning. There is being. There is nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. There is a not yet beginning to be a not yet beginning to be nonbeing. Suddenly there is nonbeing. But I do not know, when it comes to nonbeing, which is really being and which is nonbeing. Now I have just said something. But I don't know whether what I have said has really said something or whether it hasn't said something.
    :D
    [/FONT]
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    bliss.... while I understand it is to occur from within... for me it is often initiated from without...

    wow...bliss accentuated with the accidental double meaning there....

    thanx.
     
  10. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    agreed, but anecdotal is not always compelling.

    i could say the same thing about anti-religious positions.

    well, that is pretty much what is meant by being Created in the Divine Image - we strive to imitate G!D: "you must be holy, for I Am Holy".

    scholem is, of course an eminent academic authority, but his opinions are academic, rather than religious. the views of luria, or the ariza"l, as i would term him, do *not* include the notion that G!D Is fictional. i think you're taking his notion of the shevirath ha-qelim (breaking of the vessels) and turning it into something that he wouldn't recognise. certainly he would not be on the side of the qelippoth. similarly, his notions about the mission of the jewish people and the central, nay, cosmic importance of Torah cannot be overlooked.

    i suppose it depends on what you mean by kabbalah. what *i* mean is the jewish mystical tradition. it is somewhat bizarre for people to talk about kabbalah as if it was possible to remove it from judaism, Torah learning, the people / community and the desire for a better, more moral, more ethical world, or, indeed, the comming of a messianic age. i mean, i'm curious. in what sense do you mean "non-judaic qabalah"? dion fortune? mcgregor mathers? aleister crowley?

    you see, this is where i think you fail to understand just how bound up kabbalah is with the practice of judaism and belonging to a real-life, flesh-and-blood community that lives in the real world and experiences history. if it's all just a bunch of mental games to you then i think you've missed something really important about what kabbalah actually is. in the nicest possible way and with no intent to patronise (you seem like a robust enough individual) until you have experienced the presence of the Shekhinah through the lighting of the Shabbath candles, or the gathering of the sparks from the six physical directions through the manipulation of the 'arba minim, or the angelic elevation of the Qedushah of morning prayers, i don't think you can have the least idea of the nature of this. it may be a theoretical construct to you, but i work every day with the underlying patterns of reality through my daily life. i'm not in fact saying that kabbalah can't be useful, meaningful and practical for non-observant jews or non-jews, but the idea that you can divorce it from judaism, redefine its purpose and use it to create this idea of a "left hand path" as somehow separate from a "right hand path"; this, i must admit, i have trouble with. i cannot see myself as an adherent of either "path", as opposed to someone who works to integrate all three pillars working through, i suppose, an "integrating path".

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  11. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    I studied the Western Tradition and Kabbalah for twenty five or so years. One day (well, not literally one day) I couldn't think of anywhere else to go with it. "I guess I'm done" I thought. A weird mix of emotions went with that thought. At the end of my studies I came to realize that I couldn't go further without totally dedicating myself, and even that wouldn't be enough to "live" the Kabbalah. I lacked the cultural context, like you're saying. It's OK, though. I got a tremendous amount out of it without sacrificing myself to it. That's a good bargain IMO. And I'm done. I know everything I want to know.

    Chris
     
  12. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    i have picked that up in the past; it shows....in a good way! :)

    that's really very interesting to know. for me, it was partly this which impelled me to recommit to the context required; the kabbalah made me more traditionally religious.

    it would be fantastic to understand from your PoV what translates into the universal context but what are the particularist leaps you are unable to make, if you're comfortable saying so.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  13. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    I would be interested in knowing what you have gotten out of the Kabbalah? I have been working with Hermetic Qabalah for about as long and I am reaching new vistas with Qliphothic Pathworking.
     
  14. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    and i would be interested to know precisely what this means. not the hermetic stuff, i know about that, but the other stuff. what is it for? how does it work? why do you dismiss the source context?

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  15. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    Thanks for sharing your perspective, EtuMalku.
    Would you expand on what you mean by, "What is called God is merely the reflection of the True Self" & how that relates to God being known as the Objective Universe?

    Actually, even if what is most important to you (the god you worship) is questioning things... then that is your God... & sometimes, you will "clumsily" ask questions that are irrelevant. Even in questioning, some questions are more helpful than others.
     
  16. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    Good question!
    But if you think about it - we all worship - & some of us worship that which we'd never want to admit worshipping.
    Worship is "reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred."

    My god (even though I didn't call it god) for a long time was romance. And there are many supporting "hymns" playing on the radio, & other media like movies that helped in worshipping romance.

    Maybe you're right - maybe it is a degrading experience, to "look for love (God) in all the wrong places." God is within... but how I resonate within is often through external tools (ie nature, music, relationships, religion). I just have to remember not to get too wrapped up in the tools & forget the true source... even if that source is somewhat abstract & indefinite.
     
  17. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    legion = many
    religion: "the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices"

    I agree.

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Would you expand why you think God is no respector of persons?
    If God is light & truth (which according to scriptures, God is) - how can light & truth decide who to shine on & who not to?

    Just because a religion (ie Christianity/New Testament) has some truth, doesn't mean it won't fail, especially in the warped way it has traditionally been taught for generations.

    Prayer may be an exception - because it's directly accessing the "kingdom of God within." But if you put any "ritualistic rules" on prayers... those are tools & not ends in themselves.

    I agree, Thomas... If more people truly searched for what was GOoD above even their own traditional religious beliefs, there would be less war, more compassion & this world would be a better place.

    God bless you too, Thomas. :)
     
  18. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    God doesn't demand it.
    God is perfectly fine with you or anyone ignoring God's (Creation's) hand.
    God (Creation) will just keep being God.

    People have "demanded" that other people worship God.
    And people have had a warped senses of esteem for self & others.
    Most people define God by scriptures...
    That's really not too much different than taking my or anyone's writings as if TRUTH. Then, on top of that, scriptures have been through hell & back. Many have been persecuted &/or killed for trying to shed light on less submissive interpretations of scriptures (ie Williams Tynsdale).

    This is part of the reason why God should be our focus... not religion.
    And by God, I mean that which is GOoD... of all possibilities, the best one...
    (IE: the sperm that made it to the egg! :p).
     
  19. Persona

    Persona Interfaith Forums

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    BTW... Thank you for your comments.
    I'd like to discuss this more... another time.
    Love, light, & imaginary hugs! :)
     
  20. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Our True/Higher Self is our non-dualistic essence, the singularity of our essence. Upon the desire to reflect upon itself, we are immediately separated into Subjective & Objective universes. The Objective universe continues its descent into the material world and incarnates into matter.

    What many people understand as god, is merely the personification of the mysterious Objective universe.

    What did I just say? :eek:
     

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