The Fallacy of Literal Interpretation

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Ben Masada, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,044
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    My Dad can beat up your Dad.

    My army is bigger than your army.

    We all want to have bigger and better....to prove that our country, our family, our religion is better...as that makes us better..that ego thing.

    My religion is better than your religion....

    Our leader did miracles

    so did ours

    well ours is a Godman...

    so do we

    he was born to a virgin...

    so was ours

    he raised the dead, was killed and came back...

    ours too!


    Hence the reason Thomas Jefferson decided to take all that out....

    Do you think the authors of the gospels had read/heard of Paul? Had they read/heard of the gospels written before them?
     
  2. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    No sir.

    The enemies of truth, as yourself, have always misrepresented just what it is that the Ageless Wisdom teaches. Here, as on every point, you have a gross misunderstanding ... and I suspect quite intentional distortion.

    In point of fact, Theosophy teaches that there is one, over-arching PURPOSE, Thomas, ONE PLAN which pertains to ALL of Creation. Now this is well beyond ken of both Angel and Man, as you would have it ... in Roman Catholic or Christian phrasing.

    We go one step further and say that no Dhyani knows fully what that Purpose is, but this is because it pertains ... to the Cosmic Logoi and to experiences which NONE in our System, even the Solar Logos Himself, has yet encountered.

    But the point I'm correcting you on is that, like most Westerners, Thomas, you simply do not see or even suspect just what it is the Wisdom teaches. Let me remind you, Thomas, of the proper meaning of this word which you have so flippantly tossed out, btw:
    In the language of the archaic period (8th-6th century BC) arche (or archai) designates the source, origin or root of things that exist. If a thing is to be well established or founded, its arche or starting point must be secure, and the most secure foundations are those provided by the gods-the indestructible, immutable and eternal ordering of things. ~Wikipedia [`arche']
    Now this is nothing less than the Eternal Tao of Lao Tzu, and one which cannot be NAMED, though YOU, my friend will try to name everything ... in vain. Including your `Lord.' And YOU should be ~ [ah well, between Thy Maker and thee]

    Theosophy does not claim to "[hold] the original doctrine, entire and complete," as Thomas falsely represents. No Master, no Mahatma, no Messenger of the Ageless Wisdom has ever stated this, or anything like it!

    What has been said, and repeated a thousand times, even just *here at Interfaith* by Nick and myself ... is that REVELATION is ongoing, Progressive, Purposive and tends toward the provision for ALL BEINGS that they further Know, Understand and come of their own accord into FREE SERVICE according to the Logos' OWN PLAN.

    When you have not even gotten to the part where you simply ask, "How may I *BE* of Service?" ... you really just aren't going to get it. Why, you'd much rather bash other people over the head with YOUR humanly-edited, HERE-IT-IS-complete `holy writ' ... than stop for a moment and SEE that Christ asked you to use WHAT GOD GAVE YOU, but that this was and seems still to be TOO TALL A TASK.

    Thomas, don't accuse others of being crippled and afraid to move forward, or even walk in place, when it's you yourself that hasn't a clue what to do to win the race. NOT ONCE, and I mean NOT EVER does the Ageless Wisdom posit that ALL of Revelation even can be given out ... because in a word, God's still CREATING. But that's what you get when you stop CRUCIFYING God, anthropomorphizing God in reverse order across space & time, making the PANtoKRATOR into a mirror image of Christ & self, and sealing your Lord securely in the sepulchre of FLESH.

    And ye dare to speak of the Holy womb. LOL :rolleyes:

    You wouldn't (any of you, save one or two here I notice) know Virgin Space if you lived on one of the many WORLD-systems BORN FROM HER ETERNALLY PRODUCTIVE virgin waters, errrr, FACE, errrr, Space.

    Hmm, I see your problem. And it's endemic. Hint: If you find yourself staring into the mirror (and thus reflecting everything you have been taught into that same abyss), try closing your eyes. It really will help you with this whole God and literalism, interpretation of Holy Scripture issue. And you just might get where it is you're supposed to be going.

    But the cripple who insists on remaining camped by the side of the road? Ah. Even the Good Samaritan cannot help HIM with his heavy load.

    Sorry about that. :(
     
  3. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    And radarmark, you beautifully illustrated the very topic of this thread, in action, the other day. Never did I say [although you're onto something, actually] that Christ was pitching to adherents of Earth-based religions. Here, you're like the crowd holding up poor Brian's SHOE. I mean, when the reluctant messiah saw that, I don't think he knew quite *what* to do!

    You missed the point ENTIRELY. Let's try it Leno style:

    On THIS ROCK ... I shall build my Church. As in, technically, it already exists on most OTHERS [other Rocks, other planets*] within the System. Earth, as a current holdout [a story unto itself], won't hold out for long. THAT was the Man's point. THAT was inherent, if somewhat deeper down, in the very Singing of His Song.

    It will make little sense, when the head stays so firmly anchored in the bubble, like Spaceman Spiff ~ afraid of his own astral double. Or determined to wear his spacesuit ON EARTH; content to troll the forums and straighten us all out on Virgin Birth.

    Definitely not my job. :D

    *Earth, it is taught in the Holy Scripture, is among several planets not yet `Sacred' in the manner which even the Ancients were aware. Rather, we are like the protege of a much larger, Grander Scheme, a `mentor' Logos ... for the moment, let us say Saturn, and call it #3. The other Schemes of Sacred status may be enumerated, in order, as Vulcan (#1), Jupiter (#2) ... plus Mercury, Venus, Neptune and Uranus. The last two, with Saturn, form a trinity of the most DIVINE Schemes (owing to prior evolution), though not the most advanced in terms of the present system. Mars, it will be noted, is a fellow non-sacred scheme. Christ certainly instructed those open to the subjects upon the details pertaining, yet the basic idea of the Seven Planetary Schools was something He put, in allegory and metaphor, into the very Heart of His Inner Doctrine ... revealing this even to the masses, though clearly not everyone becomes ready for all the details at the same time.
     
  4. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    And lest some other unwitting, would-be-wise armchair philosopher assail the very Noble Cause, the pursuit of Truth itself ... and that Society which was formed for no less and in one sense, no greater goal:

    Read for yourself at Wiki what the Theosophical Society makes for her Objects, her Mission and how she plays by God's own Rule(s) ...
     
  5. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Radarmark, it occurs that there are some, possibly including yourself, unfamiliar with what the Vedists had to say (picked up, echoed and amplified, where possible clarified) ... on some of the matters I mentioned.

    Planetary evolution, for example, is not unusual or rare in the Ageless Wisdom. Rather, it pertains everywhere, and is the Cosmic RULE. The idea of intelligent life inhabiting a globe is taught to be UNIVERSAL and a part of God's PLAN. Every student of the Wisdom seeks to forward that: when, where and however he or she can. ;)

    There is revealed an endless Hierarchy, which begins with the Logos, includes all lesser Lives, and eventually focuses through and within Humanity Itself ... then on the sub-human scale across animal, vegetable and mineral kingdom. This point of view, however, looks primarily to the vehicles involved, the outermost expression, and does not directly speak to ME and YOU. Or of the Conscious, evolving entity, the Soul.

    Just as the Logos Himself ensouls All of Cosmos (first by remaining Transcendent, the `Unmoved Mover,' while all of Creation evolves and BECOMES something Greater) ... so to does every Wise and Loving Agent thereof play a similar, no less Noble part, on its own appropriate turn of the Infinite spiral.

    Atoms, literally are ENSOULED, teaches the Wisdom. This is Vedic instruction every bit as much as quantum physics. Getting one's `head around' the Higgs-Boson may prove, for certain reasons, a bit more difficult than simply adjusting to the seasons.

    Every single atom of Cosmos is `created' not simply in order that it may blindly and mechanically [mechanistically, some say] bounce off the proverbial walls with no apparent purpose til Judgment Day. This is the blindness and the folly of atheistic materialists; such ignorance of modern science one hopes will be shortlived.

    Perennialists in the true sense of this word, not excluding Thomas, whose ears are plugged (and thus, who hasn't heard) tend to believe that as matter evolves, so too does SPIRIT. There are really like two poles of *one magnet* with an important Interaction in between ~ a magnetic field which is Consciousness Itself [THE Self].

    We have been taught (by many a Wise Master, remember: Deus ADERIT) ... that it works a bit like this:

    Matter serves as the vehicle, the means or outer expression for the progressive, purposive evolution of Consciousness ~ which component of our being, relatively speaking, is the more ANCHOR'd, thus Foundational of the two. This, for every Theosophist as also for the Vedist, is our ROCK, inasmuch as the Buddhist observation is undeniable. All the world is CHANGING ...

    Thus, even as G*d spake to Moses, the easiest `Name' for this Great BEING was and remains: `I AM BECOMING.'

    But there is a deeper mystery involved, for life is not simply a duality, much as that angle on the world of flesh was encouraged for us, and by more than a St. Paul. Thus, even Consciousness Itself is regarded by the esotericist as another Vehicle, though of a far Nobler fashioning.

    While the threefold outer form (the personality, with its mortal mind, emotional body & physical vechicles) comes and goes many, many times ... with each new incarnation GOING OUT [vide Rev 3:12], and re-entering the Temple MANY times (yet not becoming a PILLAR for a rather long string of lives), there is also ~ in human terms ~ the Divine Reflection, a Temple of Solomon which pertains to every man (and woman).

    This is the temple not made with human hands, which Christ was able (as many before and some several since) to Resurrect, since he wasn't speaking of the flesh at all. In short, He was referring to the Fall, to the absurd notion that we might be here by accident or on a whim; and as I happen to know for fact He told us, moving forward WAS AND IS, in one sense, as simple as emulating HIM.

    Thus, DO THIS in Remembrance of `Me' becomes, when held to the Light of Insight and Reason: Obey the Instruction(s) of your Father, which art in Heaven, doing the Good deeds thereof on Earth ... and EACH ONE OF YOU [of US] in due course of time (for God's Ways are not at all times easy of understanding) "[shall] come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" [Ephesians 4:13]. Then again, maybe St. Paul was just on crack; you decide.

    Followers of the Ageless Wisdom do not subscribe to the notion that Inspired Evangelists and Apostles were deluded. We believe that in all times, ages, countries and religions the inspired WISDOM OF GOD, the TRUTH OF THE AGES is present ... as pervasive and accessible in as best a fashion or representation as the People would have it. You see?

    Thomas is actually right about this one. Where you guys insist on gross distortions ... well, you'll just have to wear it. The error, the grave offense, is for me to just ~ you know ~ sit here on the fence, kicking my feet, eating my popcorn and tossing a piece for the starlings & vultures to scramble over, letting the Crackerback Jox toy surprise get picked over and dragged through the mud by all the swine and dogs.

    "Inaction in a deed of Mercy becomes action in a deadly Sin."

    It is an offense not to share what was only provided to oneself with the intention of assisting one's own understanding, that one might become better enabled, uplifted and inspired to pass the torch forward, assisting others. To greedily guard one's pearls and gems is perhaps no better than vainly or foolishly to toss down and waste them. So folks like me, usually, as we begin to see ~ tend to withdraw, if only or at first reluctantly.

    The Nazarene Initiate, however, made a Sacrifice as few of us - and even few of the Initiated - are ever called to do. The very choice of this Advanced Soul to incarnate (which is what we should be studying, not virgin birth if we cannot lift it to its proper, pertaining spheres) among us at the time He did (~105BC) became His first of several sacrifices. This LOVING ACT, made Holy under the LAW of LOVE.

    Remember, Friends. If [this man] Thomas tells you there is another and Higher Law, then let him so NAME it... and thus, while diverging WIDELY from that doctrine and instruction of the Christ, at least let him be HONEST about confesing to us all his worst, most shameful VICE.

    Enough of that.

    There is a SPIRIT which moves [behind] every FORM; this was suggested well enough by a Paul, seeking to reform the very doctrine of the Hellenists, speaking to crowds, at times, as unfamiliar with certain nuances of the Divine Philosophy as some of you would be if I continued to speak in gutter rhymes.

    The clarification that is needed is that Consciousness Itself is the Soul, the evolving, Immortal Being which dwells within us all. This is the latent Christ, as a softly glowing ember [therefore oft-called `sleeping'], the measure of the Divine Flame {SPIRIT} which is appointed for us all (i.e., for each and all). It takes many, MANY long incarnations for this to begin to awaken ... yet inasmuch as precisely this is what we witness in the slow, forward MARCH of Nature, I shouldn't expect the astute observer and earnest student to miss it altogether (if, as we see, some become rather obsessed over the daily `weather').

    Again, why do people take the metaphors and allegory literally, yet fail to realize in literal terms what is suggested in the Parables? The well-worn grooves, it seems (as you illustrate, Radarmark, after Thomas), are far easier to run into ... and thus the needle remains stuck, the record incapable of any further inspiration [as we plainly see]. Perhaps if you listened to what came before this Man, as there is so much prejudice [with some, especially] regarding what has (for others, CLEARLY) come AFTER! :rolleyes:

    Says Theosophy's Founding patron in The Secret Doctrine [vol I, p.49]:
    Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal beings. Life we look upon as “the one form of existence,” manifesting in what is called matter; or, as in man, what, incorrectly separating them, we name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all. The idea of universal life is one of those ancient conceptions which are returning to the human mind in this century [19th, we're a little behind], as a consequence of its liberation from anthropomorphic theology.
    Here, that which I have underlined, is one of the most sublime expressions for us of the Ancient Truth ... in language of modern times, yet especially significant and meaningful only if we are willing to study what has been written PLAINLY ~ and not just between the lines.

    For uninspired theologians, as you see, will drag down both Soul and Spirit ... soon acribing to these any meaning which they wish, especially including that which neither the Ancients [the Vedists, the Egyptians, Greeks, and even the Hebrew copyists] nor their modern equivalents ever intended. Christ brought a LIVING MEANING, as flowing water, to the dead letter ~ and even the Brahmin priests that Jesus met during his travels could not quite grasp it. He confounded them, exactly as His Teaching is lost on Thomas (et al).

    Knowing something of what He taught, having applied it in my own life ~ granted imperfectly and in UNfinished manner ~ I have nonetheless discovered all that I have ever required [even 20 years ago I could have said the SAME, and never once lied] ... in precisely the WISDOM OF GOD, the Divine Wisdom, Theos Sophia. Now do not let men as Thomas here, or ANY, wrest from you what God freely gives and simply asks that we USE ~ and further develop.

    Yes, LOVE, Loving Forgiveness and a frequent return to UNmovable, Inner abiding Calm ~ an imperturbable calm with seed of Perfect Compassion ~ THIS my Friends, you should all know, is the Universal Balm. It finds its outer, daily expression and contact with men & women *everywhere* in the world as GOODWILL. We can, through the practice of such, make restitution and amends with every culture [some long extinct, yet subtly still present] Earth's ever known; establishing THIS kind of firm foundation, other Humanities (from distant Stars) will co-Assemble at the Throne.

    Do some men & women KNOW the Logos?

    Well, they asked Jesus from Nazareth this same sort of thing. At just that moment, I believe he was drinking deep, from Pierian Spring. And thus his question for the Apostle, as we think we understand it, was aptly put; the answer, those of us who can hear it, came because Peter knew - the Game's [Lila, the Divine Play, the DANCE] been long afoot:

    Let SPIRIT [your Father in Heaven, and ESSEntially the same as mine] guide your Consciousness; and as my own father often has advised me, "Let your CONSCIENCE be your Guide."

    True, each person must decide which dictates are of Conscience, clear and cold and sometimes hard. But if you're having that much trouble with this most basic of the BASICS, the Higher Road is not for you. Personally, I have found it most difficult of earnest travel, and this not because the means and CLEAR indication are not provided ... shining Bright for me, as for You. Thus the quote of Chesterton, and a similar quip of Gandhiji.

    But by no means do I intend disrespect when I say that some of you lot will simply carry on, as is your CUSTOM [or TRADITION, as some are wont to insist on calling it] ... always interpreting messages like "Love your neighbor, even your enemy as yourself" entirely metaphorically or purely as the domain of your IDOLized Superman; while matters such as virgin birth, the consumption of wine & wafers or the Confessio continue to be hammered out quite literally, along with age-old anthropomorphisms.

    It's a helluva lot easier to nail a MAN to a cross, or stone him for Preaching the Gospel, than it is to fasten fast the Divine Spirit [Deus Aderit] ... or belittle it. Or is it? I would put that one to the earnest theologian. He, of all people, ought to know [what travesty is actually going on]; and personally, I won't go near it.

    [SOUL, the Immortal reincarnating Self, relatively permanently residing in Solomon's Temple]
     
  6. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey Thomas, the rape scenario is not mine. If you google "Jesus and Pantera" you will see what I mean. But back to the Virgin Birth, take a look at this:

    ALMAH VERSUS BETULAH

    In the original in Hebrew, "Almah," which is used in Isaiah 7:14, means a young woman in child bearing age and mature for nuptials. "Betulah," which is used in Amos 5:2, means a physical virgin, pure and immature as a lamb for sacrifice.

    A lamb from the flock, to be chosen for a holocaust, it had to be physically perfect and without blemish. In the case of the Suffering Servant Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, he would have to be spiritually without blemish, as one who had never done any wrong nor spoken any falsehood. (Isa. 53:9)

    How could have Israel attained to that perfection, and then be sacrificed for the sins of Judah? Through the universal equalizer, which is death, for death cancels all. Before we were born, we had nothing to blemish our being perfect, because we did not exist. Whatever we did, enjoyed or suffered during our span of life on earth, as a result of the law of cause-and-effect, it's all left behind as we experience death, the universal equalizer, as it leads us back into our previous condition of perfection, because we won't exist, as we didn't before birth.

    Now, back to our theme, Isaiah in 7:14 is speaking of Israel as Almah, giving birth to a child, which according to I Kings 11:36, would remain forever as Immanuel, (Isa. 8:8) so that God would not have to break His "evelasting" covenant with Mankind through Noah. (Gen. 9:8-17)

    Amos in 5:2 is speaking of Israel as Betulah, ready for the sacrificial redemption of Judah, spiritually perfect and without blemish for having had all his sins made as white as snow, according to Isaiah 1:18, and cancelled out by the imminent universal equalizer in death, predicted in Jacob's prophecy of Shiloh. (Gen. 49:10)

    Conclusion: Isaiah 7:14, therefore, depicts that phase of Israel as Almah giving birth to the child Judah. And Amos 5:2 depicts that phase of Israel as Betulah dying of her pangs in a sacrificial holocaust to God, so that Judah could survive and his descendants be seen in a long life, and the will of the Lord be accomplished through him. (Isa. 53:10)

    Ben
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Hi Andrew —
    Long, long posts old chum ...
    ... but none of it answers the point that I made.

    Here you've fallen foul of the failure to discriminate between the universal and the particular.

    When you talk about the 'Ageless Wisdom', you do so as if it governs all other wisdom, in which case it's a universal, it's formless and in that sense content-less, it's a generic — it's like saying 'Truth' or 'Law'.

    When you talk about what the 'Ageless Wisdom' says, then you're talking about a particular, its expression within and through the context of a given Tradition ... so it's a contingent and relative expression within that tradition, dependent upon the metaphysical horizon of the tradition in question.

    The Theosophical Association is fundamentally cosmological, as itself declares, and as I keep saying, whereas Christian Doctrine is meta-cosmic. You might not like it, but there's the truth of it.

    We're discussing matters 'over the horizon' as far as the TS is concerned.

    You might not like it, but there it is.

    Your error with regard to Christian Doctrine is the assumption that a given dogma must mean the same as any similar-sounding dogma of your choice. You think it must mean this, Nick thinks it must mean that ... What you both seem to assume is that whatever it's saying, Christian Doctrine is wrong, which is patently nonsense.

    I've shown this to be the case, and your only response seem to be to pile insult on me, and offer up more stuff that I'be already shown is beside the point.

    Let me make it plain. Christianity does not need the Vedas to validate of correct its doctrines any more than the Vedas need Christianity. Same goes for Sufism, or Buddhism, or anything you like. They're all sand alone and entirely self-sufficient to realise themselves.

    You make a major error if you assume they're saying the same thing, and informed source will tell you that.

    It's no use throwing insults at me, or banging me about the head with your dogmas, all I'm discussing is Christian Doctrine in the light of the Christian Mysteries.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  8. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Thomas, if your `god' has a bigger dick, then tell him to get out there and use it. Oh wait a second. That guy screwed us ALL over! What am I saying!?!

    If you think you do (as is bloody well apparent), then maybe you should just content yourself with such a puffed-up ego [projected upon your own member with every glance downward in your naked and sinful state] and leave the philosophy to the philosophers.

    In short, your pissing contest ... is just that.

    I'm not interested.

    Aim high, and quite pointing things toward that fan. I keep telling you, it doesn't really help your case. No sir, not one bit.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Andrew —
    Stop being so bloody childish. If someone demonstrates your doctrine is flawed, either respond and show how it's not, or learn by it, but stop these silly tantrums. They hardly do you credit as the most informed esoterist here at IO.

    The question is the interpretation of a Christian Doctrine, in this instance the Virgin Birth, according to the Christian understanding, not according to what someone else thinks we Christians mean by it.

    And it's as clear as day that when you guys tell others what we're supposed to be thinking, you're doing no more than conforming to your declared anti-Christian agenda. You certainly seem in no hurry to put your errors right, so you will excuse me if I dismiss your nostrums as nothing more than propaganda.

    By the way, if we're talking 'Ageless Wisdom', I might point out that mine, that is the Wisdom of the Christian Tradition, goes back quite a long way:
    Matthew 13:35: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world."

    Matthew 25:34: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

    Luke 11:50: "That the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation"

    Ephesians 1:4: "As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity."

    1 Peter 1:20: "Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you"

    Indeed, the Wisdom of the Abrahamics goes back to before the dawn of time.

    Sorry if that pisses you off, but it's really not my fault.

    Thomas
     
  10. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2011
    Messages:
    3,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Funny, Andrew, I get the same "vibe" that you abscribe to Thomas from you. No proof, no logic, no reasoning, just opinion. That's okay I have some, too.
     
  11. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    Likes Received:
    6
    Radarmark, I expect better from you. Thomas is a lost cause, and I know that. But YOU?

    Didn't you ... or don't you, have something to do with Quakers? Am I mistaking you for someone else? If so, sorry about that.

    Otherwise, get out of that Meeting. Stop believing in that Inner Light nonsense. STOP being quiet and all that useless crap. SHOW me some LOGIC, friend. REASON here a little. SING or something. Chant a few Latin hymns and tell me what the POPE said is good to eat with worms, okay?

    This nonsense of going within to look for God, for Christ, for Peace, for the spark of Divinity is just baloney. I mean, get REAL.

    I need some PROOF here that any of that crap isn't just a waste of time. I want something more than your OPINION on it, OKAY?

    You disappoint me greatly. As for Thomas? Oh he's just like that. I expect no more, and will never get it, so I can smile ... and while he falls short, I know that he can rise no higher. I could preach up a storm, if it came to it, but Thomas is just ants at a picnic, as Peter Griffin put it. Lois kinda liked it. ;)

    That man pisses down everyone's back, but as for me, I knew a long time ago it wasn't raining. You two are now apparently gettin' pretty good here in this pissing context, but I got news for ya. He won't just look over to check out your yank. The moment he realizes he's petering out, or sees that your STREAM is stronger than his (and he's far weaker than he will admit) ... you're in trouble. Thomas will summon every trick in his book to win that contest. It is about that for him. The nerve, with him, is just to call it like it is.

    He thinks he worries me with this nonsense about "I've got bigger metaphysics than you do," but he's still just whistlin' Dixie.

    Radarmark, if YOU have a question you'd like to ask, go for it. I tossed out some ideas, showing that Christians often interpret literally when they should be looking figuratively, symbolically, and certainly vice versa. I didn't set out to write a treatise on it.

    The Virgin Birth is just a Roman Catholic sham to match up to the scapegoating of women as somehow responsible, MORE inherently responsible, for the evil and shortcoming in man and w/in the world today. END of story. Well, except for those damn pedophile priests. Ok, *not* quite end of story. But here, the RC's kinda screwed themselves in the ... umm, they buggered themselves. That's what I'm saying.

    So, as for a Metaphysics that trumps this drivel the Catholics came up with, more full of holes than swiss cheese, sprouting new holes like this here dike that Thomas has all 10 fingers and toes stuck into ... fire away. There is nothing desirable, let alone nothing RIGHT about this nonsense that withered old rich white guys have been cobbling together for 1500, or even 3000+ years now, regarding how to keep THEM in power, win yourself a seat right next to your illusionary `god' in your illusionary heaven [vs. your illusionary, self-styled & self-created Hell] ... and still manage to SIN LIKE THE DEVIL and do it all scot-free, CONSCIENCE-free [sic] in your remaining years within the physical.

    Seriously, radarmark, are you the one with Quaker affinities?

    If so, I am sorry it has come to this. We might be able to have a discussion elsewhere. Unfortunately, I keep logging out, then seeing what Thomas has posted on these threads [I notice how many he has stuck his fingers and toes in recently] ... and honestly, though I care about the Garden (Candide makes sense to me, increasingly), I will not stand here near the dike as Thomas tempts Fate and demands the impossible, ignoring the inevitable.

    Elsewhere, or in the proper context, yes, I would have a reasonable, rational discussion. Yet there are no moderators, there are vines growing out of control and choking the Flowers in this Garden, and while I still believe in `all for the best in the best of all possible worlds,' I think the imminent need is for Right Cultivation. To that end, I am seeking something precisely (in some form) along the lines of the Metta Bhavana mentioned in a recent post from Thomas.

    Thomas, unfortunately, would not recognize his `Savior' if the same sat down next to him on the bus or tube on the way to work. He wouldn't recognize him at Church, or in the street, on the tellie or anywhere else. He has rejected Christ in his own heart, in his brothers and in fact, EVERYWHERE that Christ taught him to look. Rather, he vainly rails on and seeks Christ in the few places where the Nazarene specifically showed us ARE MOST CORRUPT, are LEAST WELCOMING of Light and Love ... and while he can post a reference, a recommendation, for OTHERS to practice something, thus PREACHING quite lovely-like, sadly, he cannot SHOW us what it is which he once recognized ... and was drawn to [if ever that was truly so].

    Me? Am I the same? Well, lest I make of myself an instant hypocrite, I think I will get on with the need of the hour. So, whether it's this Garden or another, THE Gadda da Vida on a larger scale or what-have-you ... I think I'll dosome cultivating. Honestly, it sickens me sometimes to see what is happening here. And much as I do not believe it useful to scapegoat, I also know the power of thought, and of action ... and when I see how unhealthy (yet no less influential) some of our practices (here or elsewhere) are, I am reminded that it doesn't have to be this way, if we do not choose.

    Good Luck! :)
     
  12. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    Messages:
    999
    Likes Received:
    1
    IMHO, they were all former Hellenistic disciples of Paul, as I can't believe that any of the gospel writers was Jewish. If any of the apostles of Jesus wrote anything at all, it obviously was discarded when the books of the NT were organized into the Christian Canon in the 4th Century, as the selection was made based on the writings of Paul.

    Ben
     
  13. Nephilim48

    Nephilim48 Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let us not forget that all of the gospels were heavily censored by the Christian Church to fit in with the message they wanted to convey. None of them were written at the time of jesus life, but at least 40 years after, relying on hearsay and memories. We all now how the mind misrembers facts after only a few days, never mind forty years.
    Christianity like all major religions relies on followers not questioning the credo they decide for their followers. Anyone with a logical questioning mind must realise that these accounts cannot be relied on to be factual.
    To my mind thesourcefoundation has a belief system that makes sense to rational human beings.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Any real proof of that? Or are you just repeating what you've heard?

    Actually, I do question, I am logical, and to my mind your argument is just a repetition of unproven assumptions, many of which are factually wrong.

    That it does not make sense to you, does not mean it does not make sense at all.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,044
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    None were Jews?? I thought they were all Jews....they just followed Jesus....at the time I thought Jews followed the teachings of various teachers/rabbi....Jesus followers were all still self identified as Jews, no? A splinter sect maybe, but still Jews?
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Hi Wil —
    Quite right. By the time He began His wider ministry He had collected a fair following around Him at Capernaum — home to five of the twelve — where He was living after moving away from the more remote Nazareth.

    John mentions Philip being approached by Gentiles interested in Our Lord's teaching (12:20), but this was on His last trip to Jerusalem.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Nephilim —
    You make wild claims without a shred of evidence, and you repeat the same old ill-informed prejudices which ignores the facts, scholarship and understanding — you're just repeating the same, tired old anti-religious propaganda that you've been fed ... and you accuse us of lacking reason? RAOFL!

    Well if you can evidence that, your fame will be assured, but as you can't, you're just full of someone else's lies or ignorance.

    You are so, so wrong ... and if you had bothered to find out for yourself, you would know how badly you've been misled.

    I accept, that used to be the fashion in scholarly circles in the 80s, but now more informed insight has led to the general consensus that there are indeed a number of verifiable facts.

    And, if you're arguing that 'truth' or 'knowledge' is limited only to that which can be empirically measured, then you're operating under a very limited field of vision.

    So your source is peddling out-dated information, and furthermore its exagerating the claims out of all proportion.

    For years, people said St Luke's Gospel was full of factual inaccuracies, but then, as time went on, the archeological evidence emerged that showed he was right, and his critics were wrong in their assumptions.

    St Luke is now regarded as one of the best 'street level' insights into the state of Roman Jewish relations available.

    It just asks for your money, right?

    And where is their evidence?

    Actually, the doctrines of the three Traditions is bullet-proof, and anyone who

    As for Christian Doctrine, it is entirely reasonable, and well reasoned ... so again, you're talking from the standpoint of ignorance.

    Well it's obvious you know nothing about Christian doctrine of the 2,000 years of philosophical tradition behind it.

    Try for yourself: Go to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy and look up Anselm, or Aristotle, or Aquinas ... or to the Bernard Lonergan website, and explain to me the General Empirical Method, Cognitional Theory, etc., which the world's leading universities seem to find quite well reasoned, logical, rational, etc.,

    Or perhaps you's like to discuss ontological theory, or cosmological theory, or any of the other 20plus arguments for the existence of God?

    Then look up your Source Foundation authorities to get a comparison.

    I'd hang on before leaping to judgement ... it may well be that the fairies are in the heads of your SF crew ...

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  18. Nephilim48

    Nephilim48 Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thomas you seem to be so brainwashed that you are incapable of recognising the nonsense you claim to be fact.
    None of the so called great religions of the world stand up to scientific scrutiny.
    They rely on weak minded people to follow their teachings as a sort of security blanket. Promising an after life is you behave according to their will in this. Well where is you proof that the afterlife even exisits?

    A rational reasoning adult is able to recognise this, maybe one day you will have your eyes open to the lies preached in the name of religion
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    I love these comments!

    If you could detail where you get your 'facts' from, then we might be able to discuss them. So far all I've seen nothing but factual error and opinion.

    See?

    For a start, 'theology' is a science, whereas populist writers who make sensational claims fall into the category of 'bad science' ...

    And by 'scientific scrutiny', I assume you mean the empirical sciences? In which case the argument is invalid, as the axioms of religion transcend the axioms of the physical sciences. Your 'scientific scrutiny' is way out of its comfort zone when looking at these matters.

    In 1878, Thomas Edison's phonograph was demonstrated to the French Academy of Science. One of the Academy, Jean Bouillaud, said: "It is quite impossible that the noble organs of human speech could be replaced ignoble, senseless metal." Bouillaud attributed the demonstration he had seen to "ventriloquism."

    So you will excuse me if I am not immediately convinced by what science has to say ... I rather side with the leaders in their field, who all acknowledge that anyone who says they know all the answers is talking out of his or her hat.

    Actually, 'science' (as opposed to 'scientism'), the 'religious impulse' was there before science, and gave rise to science, and will be there long after science has exhausted itself (check out New Scientist for that argument).

    To debate the issue properly, you'd have to say which science you're talking about.

    The last time I spoke to a Cosmologist, he agreed that, whilst he did not believe in God, he accepted that one could not rule God out of the argument.

    I'm not even going to bother addressing the presumptions here ...

    Really? I would have thought a rational, reasoning adult would have worked out there's more to this world than what you can see and measure, between the microscope and the telescope ...

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Hi Nephilim

    Why, because I refuse to abandon 50 years of lived experience on your say-so?

    What else have you given me? Nothing ... and you accuse me of arrogance because I don't fall at your feet?

    Actually it is — you offer no evidence to support your argument, and it seems to me there's ample evidence to suggest you're wrong.

    Really? Then why does Scripture say question?

    How do you explain intellects of world renown who follow 'organised religion'? Look at Paul Ricoeur, Fr. Bernard Lonergan, Fr. Georges Lemaître, who came up with the Big Bang theory, or Fr. Gregor Medel, who pioneered the science of genetics?

    So you see, your accusations are extremely bigoted and prejudiced and takes insufficient account of reality.

    Ah ... I lost my faith so everyone should toss away theirs?

    Again, the ignorant and frankly offensive assumption is that no-one else questions their faith.

    I am and do, which is why I can refute your argument so readily. You, however, show no sign of any analytical thinking at all.

    Who knows, there is always the possibility that you're wrong :eek: You seem to assume you're infallible, I question that, and find it suspect, and, indeed, arrogant.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     

Share This Page