The Divine Connexion

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by radarmark, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Saying the stepping stone is disposable or not valuable is not what any tradition I know of says....

    How else would one get to the other side of the stream?

    The stone, the boat, a ladder....we use the tools as we need them, and when they are no longer needed we move on...

    Most traditions have this plane of existence as a primary school....

    Primary school is valuable...while it may be replaced by other methods of learning....it has its place...

    But arguing what is hereafter when one doesn't even know what is here is beginning to seem ludicrous.

    We've got a lot to learn here in creation....and what comes of it, what occurs next is all conjecture, and if there is one thing I've learned....those that are willing to tell you what is behind the curtain....have never been there, and have no clue....
     
  2. salishan

    salishan freesoul

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    Radarmark the Reptile

    the earth was a wetter & warmer place during the era of the big lizards , the dinosaurs
    & the earth might still be that way today , & still ruled by the big lizards
    if that massive comet had not hit Yucatan & plunged the planet into a long freeze

    it was not the big scaled-lizards but the small warm-blooded ones , fringe scavengers
    with feathers or fur for warmth instead of scales , who persevered through the long cold

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    Radarmark
    exquisite creature

    i feel the ache here , the warm blast of u'r yearning
    but when i first read this a few weeks ago , i was annoyed

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    the "mirror-stage" in u'r early babyhood ... it is
    a key transitional moment in child development , according to French psychologist/philosopher Jacques Lacan

    before this stage , mom & dad & rug & chair & self are indistinguishable events
    (just one wonderful gummy reality)
    but once u see u'r self in a mirror, & recognize that image as "me"
    the seeming unity (this second womb) evaporates & fragments
    (u'r sense of self separates from the actors in u'r environment)

    this nostalgia for a lost unity ... (this yearning of u'rs , Radarmark)
    it got on my nerves
    "enough with the womb-talk!" i said to myself "grow up RM , grow up ! "

    now (however) i am more distanced (with the passing of time) , dear friend
    & i'm about to tell u things which (i'm sure) u already know
    but it might prove useful to spell them out

    so ...
    i would like (if u wouldn't mind the intrusion ? ) to
    drop down into u'r reptilian brain for few moments ;)

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    as a reptile u are a pretty basic creature
    u hatch from an egg , then u are on u'r own until u die

    no mommy & daddy to help u along , no brothers nor sisters to share burdens
    no community of friends & associates , just u'r self all alone
    u'r impulses aim at just eating & hiding , plus an infrequent copulation
    then one day u are suddenly a rotting carcass , with no fellow-creatures to mourn-over u

    & , Radarmark
    this is not just some lowly creature , way down the evolutionary food-chain
    this creature is u

    the brain of a reptile is here still , inside u'r skull
    (inside every mammal & human skull) , still sending impulses
    impulses which affect how u experience the world & how u behave in it

    (sure , the mammalian brain in the limbic cortex redirects these impulses
    & sure , the prefrontal human cortex redirects these impulses even more
    but the primordial impulses about life which u feel , originate here)

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    the key to life is the body's acquisition of energy , so that
    all impulses (in a sense) are feeding impulses

    dining as much as u can , as often as u can
    while trying to not become some other creature's dinner

    this is "short-term survival" in a nutshell
    food & shelter
    the genetic imperative to feed & hide

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    cybernetics & ecological-theory use the technical term "feed" in a somewhat different sense
    these theories talk about "feedback" & "feedforward" within an energized-system , but
    ... it all comes down to the same thing

    when an impulse in a lizard's brain is "feed back" , the "back" refers "back to its genes" (to its innate drives)
    i.e. positive feedback means just keep doing it , "gratify u'r automatic appetites" (eat eat eat)
    but negative feedback means yuck , "don't mess with that food again" (not good for u)

    a reptile is (from birth) pretty much pre-programmed by their genes (i.e. eating machine) , but
    once out in the world , the reptile is (nonetheless) capable of learning a few new tricks
    (some foods make u ill , some foods snap-back)

    positive-feedback is thoughtless spontaneous behavior
    (a pre-"mirror stage" unity , as it were) but
    negative-feedback is acquisition of information
    (a post-"mirror stage" self-consciousness , i.e. thinking at the most primary level)

    conversely , when an impulse in a reptile's brain is "feed forward"
    the "forward" refers to "extinction" (ultimate destiny)
    (the only thing u have to look forward to , u becoming food for some other creature)
    i.e. negative feedforward means run & hide , "find a rock to hide under"
    (so u can live to eat another day)
    but positive feedforward means dig a hole & build a nest , "construct a safe birth place for u'r offspring"

    & this is where the reptile in u (Radarmark) gets particularly interesting

    when a reptile hides from danger under a rock , it changes nothing & feels nothing
    (this is just a "phase-lock" state , doing the same-old-same-old ... like pre-"mirror stage" unity)
    (just egocentric survival , the delaying of extinction)
    negative-feedforward

    but when a reptile selects a hole for its nest , there is frequently some "unnecessary" added work done
    (i.e. uneconomical laboring beyond a lizard's innate procreative-drive , this "phase-shift" state will
    exert energy with some vague-awareness of responsibility to the future ... i.e. post-"mirror stage")
    (an inchoate sense of caring)
    positive-feedforward

    (& perhaps this is the aboriginal source of religion ...
    one tiny-hedge or tender-gesture against inevitable extinction)

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    rote feeding & hiding are ...
    static & eternal verities of genetic life

    acquiring-information & building-a-better-nest are
    (in some ways) the cutting edge of evolution

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    each added layer which evolved out of (& above) the reptilian brain
    rechannels these basic reptilian impulses

    the mammalian brain rechannels these (countervailing) thinking & feeling impulses into intellect & emotion
    & the human cerebral cortex rechannels these impulses once again into rationality & intimacy

    but the evolutionary tools which push these changes , Radarmark
    remember that they are negative-feedback & positive-feedforward
    i.e. initially just ... acquiring-information & building-a-better-nest
    & it is these little swerves from the norm which have ... lead the way to the mammalian & human brain

    the self-consciousness & awareness (the thinking & feeling) of ... the post-"mirror stage" child :cool: the little-lizard

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    Radarmark , this is what u should be yearning for & celebrating
    not u'r beloved pre-"mirror stage" primordial unity
    (not remaining unconscious & unaware of the impulses that drive u)

    u should embrace (instead)
    self-consciousness about what u are experiencing (negating the past) &
    awareness of the consequences of u'r own behavior (positing a future)

    because , what it appear to me that u are actually craving
    is ... (put simply) , to stay that big-lizard

    i.e. to become (irrevocably , & unmitigatedly) ... extinct

     
  3. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    I do not follow at all. I have a different interpretation than you. Reality is the Kosmos as a whole, determined by actual entities that may be called physical or mental. Who and what I am is not solely determined by some hypothesized reptilian or mammalian brain any more than it is determined by my qualia of what logic and math and science mean.
     
  4. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Radarmark the Reptile


    I do understand the reference.

    the earth was a wetter & warmer place during the era of the big lizards , the dinosaurs
    & the earth might still be that way today , & still ruled by the big lizards
    if that massive comet had not hit Yucatan & plunged the planet into a long freeze

    it was not the big scaled-lizards but the small warm-blooded ones , fringe scavengers
    with feathers or fur for warmth instead of scales , who persevered through the long cold

    I do understand the reference.

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    Radarmark
    exquisite creature

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by radarmark [​IMG]
    ... We have lost our divine connexion ...
    i feel the ache here , the warm blast of u'r yearning
    but when i first read this a few weeks ago , i was annoyed


    The point was not my ache, the point was we have “put aside” our (hypothesized) early holistic view.

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    the "mirror-stage" in u'r early babyhood ... it is
    a key transitional moment in child development , according to French psychologist/philosopher Jacques Lacan

    before this stage , mom & dad & rug & chair & self are indistinguishable events
    (just one wonderful gummy reality)
    but once u see u'r self in a mirror, & recognize that image as "me"
    the seeming unity (this second womb) evaporates & fragments
    (u'r sense of self separates from the actors in u'r environment)

    this nostalgia for a lost unity ... (this yearning of u'rs , Radarmark)
    it got on my nerves
    "enough with the womb-talk!" i said to myself "grow up RM , grow up ! "


    So it is incumbent for us all to think and feel like a modernist meta-narrative or a post-modern deconstruction. Lacan could be right, I do not know. There are plenty of psychologists and philosophers (Jungians to Transpersonal in the former, and Chomsky to Davidson) who reject the notion, so your assertion of it with no evidence is (IMHO) of no concern (unless you relate this to what follows, I may never understand).

    now (however) i am more distanced (with the passing of time) , dear friend
    & i'm about to tell u things which (i'm sure) u already know
    but it might prove useful to spell them out

    so ...
    i would like (if u wouldn't mind the intrusion ? ) to
    drop down into u'r reptilian brain for few moments [​IMG]

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    as a reptile u are a pretty basic creature
    u hatch from an egg , then u are on u'r own until u die

    no mommy & daddy to help u along , no brothers nor sisters to share burdens
    no community of friends & associates , just u'r self all alone
    u'r impulses aim at just eating & hiding , plus an infrequent copulation
    then one day u are suddenly a rotting carcass , with no fellow-creatures to mourn-over u

    & , Radarmark
    this is not just some lowly creature , way down the evolutionary food-chain
    this creature is u

    the brain of a reptile is here still , inside u'r skull
    (inside every mammal & human skull) , still sending impulses
    impulses which affect how u experience the world & how u behave in it

    (sure , the mammalian brain in the limbic cortex redirects these impulses
    & sure , the prefrontal human cortex redirects these impulses even more
    but the primordial impulses about life which u feel , originate here)


    Sorry, I do not follow. The reptile brain is an interesting concept. Howerver, like anything else that is an empirical claim, can be countered. Neuroscience now shows that bird-brains lacking a neocortex still behave as if they were mammalian. Ditto for early (see Strieder, 2012 or Barrett, 2012) mammals (functions of the neo-cortex can be completed by other structures).

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    the key to life is the body's acquisition of energy , so that
    all impulses (in a sense) are feeding impulses

    dining as much as u can , as often as u can
    while trying to not become some other creature's dinner

    this is "short-term survival" in a nutshell
    food & shelter
    the genetic imperative to feed & hide

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    cybernetics & ecological-theory use the technical term "feed" in a somewhat different sense
    these theories talk about "feedback" & "feedforward" within an energized-system , but
    ... it all comes down to the same thing

    when an impulse in a lizard's brain is "feed back" , the "back" refers "back to its genes" (to its innate drives)
    i.e. positive feedback means just keep doing it , "gratify u'r automatic appetites" (eat eat eat)
    but negative feedback means yuck , "don't mess with that food again" (not good for u)

    a reptile is (from birth) pretty much pre-programmed by their genes (i.e. eating machine) , but
    once out in the world , the reptile is (nonetheless) capable of learning a few new tricks
    (some foods make u ill , some foods snap-back)

    positive-feedback is thoughtless spontaneous behavior
    (a pre-"mirror stage" unity , as it were) but
    negative-feedback is acquisition of information
    (a post-"mirror stage" self-consciousness , i.e. thinking at the most primary level)

    conversely , when an impulse in a reptile's brain is "feed forward"
    the "forward" refers to "extinction" (ultimate destiny)
    (the only thing u have to look forward to , u becoming food for some other creature)
    i.e. negative feedforward means run & hide , "find a rock to hide under"
    (so u can live to eat another day)
    but positive feedforward means dig a hole & build a nest , "construct a safe birth place for u'r offspring"


    Again, I just do not have the tools to process this. Are you saying that we (as human beings, not reptiles) only have the capability to “feed-forward” as feed-our-own-extinction as either running or nurturing? You will have to provide me some references on that because I do not see it.

    & this is where the reptile in u (Radarmark) gets particularly interesting

    when a reptile hides from danger under a rock , it changes nothing & feels nothing
    (this is just a "phase-lock" state , doing the same-old-same-old ... like pre-"mirror stage" unity)
    (just egocentric survival , the delaying of extinction)
    negative-feedforward

    but when a reptile selects a hole for its nest , there is frequently some "unnecessary" added work done
    (i.e. uneconomical laboring beyond a lizard's innate procreative-drive , this "phase-shift" state will
    exert energy with some vague-awareness of responsibility to the future ... i.e. post-"mirror stage")
    (an inchoate sense of caring)
    positive-feedforward

    (& perhaps this is the aboriginal source of religion ...
    one tiny-hedge or tender-gesture against inevitable extinction)

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    rote feeding & hiding are ...
    static & eternal verities of genetic life

    acquiring-information & building-a-better-nest are
    (in some ways) the cutting edge of evolution


    I see it rather differently all entities (things that exist in reality) are governed by two basic forces… information and entropy (see Zurek). Physics could be (I think probably is) a probabilistic information structure, the details of which are unknown.

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    each added layer which evolved out of (& above) the reptilian brain
    rechannels these basic reptilian impulses

    the mammalian brain rechannels these (countervailing) thinking & feeling impulses into intellect & emotion
    & the human cerebral cortex rechannels these impulses once again into rationality & intimacy

    but the evolutionary tools which push these changes , Radarmark
    remember that they are negative-feedback & positive-feedforward
    i.e. initially just ... acquiring-information & building-a-better-nest
    & it is these little swerves from the norm which have ... lead the way to the mammalian & human brain

    Again, all of this is not proven science, there are debates. I am not able to follow your reasoning, but I can understand (a little of) neuroscientists of consciousness and decision-making (and Striedter and Dobzhansky who do not agree in total with Lacan)

    the self-consciousness & awareness (the thinking & feeling) of ... the post-"mirror stage" child [​IMG]the little-lizard

    x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y x y

    Radarmark , this is what u should be yearning for & celebrating
    not u'r beloved pre-"mirror stage" primordial unity
    (not remaining unconscious & unaware of the impulses that drive u)

    u should embrace (instead)
    self-consciousness about what u are experiencing (negating the past) &
    awareness of the consequences of u'r own behavior (positing a future)

    because , what it appear to me that u are actually craving
    is ... (put simply) , to stay that big-lizard

    i.e. to become (irrevocably , & unmitigatedly) ... extinct


    See, I see it totally differently; your “pre-mirror state” is still a state of very human consciousness. Just open to more ways of visualization. It is not, as I think you are implying, a retreat to a pre-human state (I just find it shocking to think that one would consider Abraham, Zarathustra, the Rishis, the Ancient Shamans, and Druids as driven by an “urge to delay extinction”). And the unfragmented nature of the Bushmen, the Mundas, the Aboriginals, the Ainu, the Oceanics, the Siberians, and the Native Americans are a reflection of a “actually craving is ... (put simply) , to stay that big-lizard”


    No, I find that attitude rather quaint and overtly modernist and colonialist. The point is rationality and science do not (cannot) explain everything in terms of material stuff or programs.
     
  5. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Second interpretation. What you mean by information and cybernetics is limited by physicality (the data is from sense experience or linking sense experiences or operating on them). I mean both physical and non-physical events (mentality and spirituality). That is I consider information based on merely thought (like the many kinds of cosmologies or ontologies) equally to be data-driven. Same with information and conjectures about the D-vine.

    That alternative is less a mine-field.
     
  6. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Well, as I remember it (not that I was there, I ain't that old), Western Prophetic Religion burnt scientists (Vico) or locked them up (Galileo). It was not until the Renaissance and Enlightenment (neither following the tenants of Western Prophetic Religion) that either science or political liberty was invented.

    And since that time the reactionary elements of Western culture have remained those dedicated to Western Prophetic Religion (think of the Scopes Monkey trial or the Creationist junk science). Think also of the viciousness of the Crusades (remember, the Rhineland was first and the Cathars were also part of the Crusades) or the lies and re-writing of history that was the Bush 43 Iraq War.

    Sorry, the East may not have originated much of science and technology (this, too, is debatable). But today Asian students (who by and large have rejected Western Prophetic Religion) are on the cutting edge of science and technology and entrepreneurship.

    Western Prophetic Religion gives us such Milquetoast figures as McCready Price (whose books on geology are not even wrong) or the outright lies of George Monbiot (of his list of 500 scientists whose work were cited as refuting global warming over 400 demanded to be removed) or the idiocy of the wonderful words of Richard Murdock or Todd Aiken ("G-d plans rapes" and "real rape cannot lead to pregnancy") or the thuggery of the Bruders Schweigen (murderers and bankrobbers for the glory of "Christian America") or or Yagil Amar (he who murdered Rabin) or UBL (he who was responsible for 9-11).

    Nope, give me the Eastern View anytime.
     
  7. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Furthermore, the Divine Connexion can be found in Zoroastrianism [FONT=Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif](Zarathosti Ilme-Khshnoom), Judaism (Hassidim), Christianity (Saints in all sects, Quakerism as a sect), Islam (Sufis, Alevis, and Ahmadiyya), Sikhs (almost the entire community), and Bahai's (See "Seven Valleys" or "Hidden Words").[/FONT]

    One need not believe in the Western Prophetic Religion (a belief in the power of self and words and "one way") to practice a Western Monotheistic religion; one can be a follower of Eastern mysticism (the Easternism decried above).
     
  8. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    Rofl, if Mohandas K. Gandhi didn't make his way to highest heaven ~ perhaps prior to a rebirth 3 decades ago, for all we know ~ then I can bet you all the tea in China that neither will you find radarmark, AndrewX/Taijasi/Ecumenist, skinker, a cup of this or that, nor ANY OTHER SOUL on the planet in `Heaven.'

    The thought that the NOBLEST of the Sons of Men, who are also the Sons of God, should not be your Elders ~ both while IN incarnation, AND while out of it [in HEAVEN] ... is absurd. Most of us are as WORMS before the likes of a Gandhi, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, or some supposedly halfway sentient Zen Master called - what was that bloke's name again, Huey Nang?

    I am amazed that such foolishness should pass the lips [keystrokes] of anyone who otherwise considers himself a thinking human being. If you are so blind that you think a Christian Heaven~ already a fiction and a disgusting parody, a TRAVESTY of the truth ~ should be as exclusive as the narrow minds, tightly-closed hearts and sheltered lives of the so-called `followers of Jesus' ... then let us ALL pray that you be divorced, and soon, from such a decrepit, morally-bankrupt, disgustingly-smug DELUSION.

    Christ plainly said, "NONE comes to the Father EXCEPT BY ME."

    Now if you can't deal with that, it's best to just remain tight-lipped and leave the heavy lifting for the big boys.

    If you CAN grasp part of the implication, yet you're NOT QUITE SURE how exactly this plays out ~ or how it plays out in the world TODAY, then at least you're on the right track. Sit back, and maybe listen and LEARN something for a change.

    If you're bright enough to realize that this causes serious problems when it is interpreted with the same NARROW approach to which I have already alluded ~ namely, that anyone born BEFORE the time of Jesus clearly could not enter Heaven ~ then again, LISTEN AND LEARN, for you shall see that your current understandings are quite lacking.

    There is a VERY clear, straightforward response to this problem, but unless you are familiar with the concept of the `ONE Initiator,' you will not make much headway. Indeed there are MANY ways to understand this idea, which is central to EVERY religious tradition ... yet if you remain blinded by language and unable to grasp an abstract meaning then apply it to its [relevant, appropriate] particulars, you shall err as surely and predictably as at least one other would-be philosopher-thelogian who I have come to know a bit better than I would have ever preferred. Of course, you are not alone, as there are many millions who simply bump around in the dark, following those who do likewise.

    But if you are going to make stupid statements simply because your mind is so cubby-holed and incapable of rising above the differences, DON'T GET PISSED AT ME for pointing out what a fool you are. Yeah, don't sweat it bro. Once you get to your glory glory spot up there next to BaJeeeeezuz, along with those other 143,999 nut jobs, you can look down upon poor, poor unenlightened goofball me (and the other nearly 60 billion unredeemed human ijits) ... laugh at our ignorance and our misfortune, and occasionally spit just a little, since you know we'll all just think it be rainin'.

    To sum up: GO FISH!!!
     
  9. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I think humanity has become too dammed religious for our own good. God's Spirit, the Spirit of our Lord, the Spirit of love lies sleeping in far too many of us. We ought to be doing our best to awaken the giant that far too many neglect and deem insignificant. HE lives in us all, but until we acknowledge HIM in ourselves and in others, we stand opposed to HIS (Christ's) purpose.

    I think most of us need to sweep the floor, allowing ourselves to see Christ in ALL people ... not just those who act, believe, look, and live a certain way. It's about acknowledgement. No one is special because they happened to have read a book and believed it. We are a branch belonging to a greater vine ... a quickening Spirit that when acknowledged gives life.

    Failure to acknowledge the Spirit of our Lord can only lead to a carnal mindset. Thank God that there are some who encourage and who exhort the Christ [the divine] in others. I Know that Christ is in all, but for many His Spirit lies dormant and has been overshadowed by worldly things.

    Many don't see it because most don't acknowledge Christ [the divine] in themselves. While some deny that Christ dwells in all people, and while some stand opposed to his purpose, which is God's will, there remains a few who at least try to awaken others to the realization that Christ lives within every living soul.

    I think acknowledging Christ [the divine] and allowing him [the divine] to lead us is important. He knocks, he calls out to his lost sheep, but unless we respond back, then we will likely remain lost. We are his sheep, lost or otherwise and we need to recognize that others can be his sheep also. We need to encourage them and build them up so they might acknowledge Christ in themselves, whereby he will lead them as well.

    Jesus uses the phrase "my sheep" to identify those who acknowledge Christ [the divine]. If we fail to acknowledge [the divine] within ourselves, then how can Christ lead us? People will only follow those whom they think are capable of leading them. The thing is, we all have Christ's divine presence within, and I'm pretty sure we are all perfectly able to hear that small still voice. It falls on us to respond to that voice and follow.

    There's a lot of heretic hunters in the world ... so called hall monitors for God - as if their views are so beyond reproach that they themselves have become God's voice to the masses. I think the only voice a person truly needs to concern themsselves with is that small still voice that calls to us from within, knocking at our hearts, urging us to love one another and moving us forward in compassion.

    Of course having ample knowledge of scripture can't hurt, but scripture isn't what saves us. Scripture only provides a tool for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. The Spirit our Lord, however, leads us forever in God's grace and is what gives life. It is a divine connection that all people have to God. It is Christ in us ... the hope of glory.

    Namaste,
     
  10. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Let me return to why I started this thread. The Western mind has focused on the scientistic and materialistic viewpoint of the universe being only matter/energy. I believe this is a fundamentally flawed vision. Our experience of subjective, introspectively accessible entities (from something as simple as "the experience of red" to something as complex as "understanding Godel's Theorems") are counter-examples to the notion of "all is matter".

    I am not saying that the D-vine Connexion is some form of entirely passive self-examination. I am claiming that the D-vine can connect to us mind-to-mind. I can experience the silence, truth, love, and humility that the Saints call "the Voice of G-d" or the beyond. If I, a product of the scientistic education of the post-Sputnik era, can understand this, I believe anyone should.
    This is "the hard problem of philosophy".

    In the West the Renaissance led to the Enlightenment, which got tied to an anti-religious stance due to the extreme reactions of the Christian Churches. But the emotional, the mental, the psychological, and the spiritual entities that challenged and comforted us was "thrown out with the bathwater".

    The first generations of Western Enlightenment philosophers (like Newton and Kant) never denied the presence of mind or G-d. However, as the discussion continued is a more and more dis-jointed way individuals with very good mathematical or logical skills (like Descartes or LaPlace) who had become radicalized (in terms of anti-clerical views) invented this materialistic meta-physics.

    This culminated in the Vienna Circle (see also Burt's "Logical Positivism and the Concept of Consciousness") of Modernists known as logical positivists. It is their mind-set, their ideology, their metaphysics which provide the foundation for such contemporary figures as von Faassen, Hawking, Russell, Kripke, Dennett, and Dawkins.

    This "I am a meat-Popsicle" view is at the core of most engineering, mathematical, and scientific education in the West.

    To quote Wolfgang Pauli (a mystically-inclined Deist who laid the foundations of "It from Qubit" thought) and Sir Arthur Eddington (a believing, mystically inclined Quaker who was, famously, the first person to understand Einstein as mathematicalized by Minkowski, and who wrote "Why I Believe in G-d" as a refutation of Russell) this viewpoint "Is Not even wrong"!
     
  11. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Hey, ACOT. So what do you think, did Modernism set us back? Did we lose something as we left the Middle Ages"? Can one person actually touch the D-vine?

    I, personally, am a doubter. One of my old roshis at SF Zen Center used to call be "doubting Thomas" until he passed. And I always said I was so anti-joining that I would probably pass on J-sus if H- returned before me in grandeur (it's a once-burnt-twice-shy thing). Besides, I just never could get into any of the new age stuff (conspiracy theories from JFK to aliens). The Masters I have met were never all that evangelical... kinda like AA "attraction rather than promotion". Anyway, that is how it works for me. Chest-thumping just is not my gig.
     
  12. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I'll have to et back too you on that, I'm having a cold right now so I can hardly sting sentences together. So no discussion and no Christmas for me.

    I don't really have an opinion n the matter, I don't feel one myself so I don't know what I'm talking about. On the other hand, I take philosophical view that people don't change. There are differences, but we will basically always be the same.
     
  13. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    My, why are you always so personal and negative? The Masters I knew were merely source, I am not a clone. Again, you can consider Eastern approaches as primitive as you like. Realize that really merely says something about you, since you fail to comprehend the basics of any tradition (you are intent on founding your own).

    As for the second paragraph, Chr-st J-sus is far more than a "spiritual entity". And nowhere does he say "close your mind and ignore the world around you", which, as far as I can tell is all you teach.

    Really, you should not use the term "thinking critically" you do not.
     
  14. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    See, I do not believe G-d is limited or petty or hateful. A conception of a god with any of these characteristics is not the G-d I am speaking about. If my own mind can transcend the petty differences that people like Ashu (assassin of Abdullah I), Islambouli (assassin of Sadat), or Amir (assassin of Rabin) seem so focused on, I believe that any mind to be considered G-d's could.

    A real simple explanation. The more ecumenical and less tribal, the more rational and less emotional, the more humanitarian and less exceptional a notion of a god is, the closer it is to being G-d.
     
  15. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Please let ACOT, Ecumenist, Gatekeeper, bhaktajan, Thomas, salishan, and I have a calm discussion about what we see as the Divine Connexion without your interjections. Please start a "Why the Divine Connexion is WRONG!" thread or something, or you limit your discussion to the "Celestrial Torah Christianity", since that is all I really see you discussing.
     
  16. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    Holy Jesus Christ Almighty!

    Well raise my taxes!

    Those are not "Mentions" ---that is a "tome" worth of injunctions and caveats.

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Not to worry, that's where we must
    specifically propagate the visages of
    Guadalupe & El Niño Jesus
    (as sacrosanct) but discreetly.

    Let us all secretly obtain, copy & distribute the name, fame, form, personality, paraphernalia and pastimes of none-other than the supreme personality of
    Baby Jesus.

    as I have said before:
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Couldn't we just eliminate all the Abrahamic religions and live peacefully for a while?
     
  18. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    or couldn't we just all live peacefully anyway? why is it so important to everyone to eliminate my culture?

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  19. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    You are apparently the lamb that is to be sacrificed, very unfortunate for you.
     
  20. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    It is the Soul Itself, the vehicle of the SPIRITUAL Consciousness, which is the CRUX of our human evolution and the special domain of the Christ, or World Teacher, called the Bodhisattva in the West ... and `Messiah' by the Jewish people, Saoshyant by the Persian, Imam Mahdi by the Muslim, and so on. Christ as Hierophant of the Mysteries, standing in for `the One Initiator,' is concerned especially with the construction of the true TEMPLE OF THE LORD, the `Temple of Solomon' in its esoteric aspect ... the literal vehicle of the Soul which St. Paul alludes to in I Corinthians 15. We know that this requires many lifetimes, and these are spoken of by Theosophists as a *symbolical* 777 incarnations, where 700 are spent in the `Hall of Ignorance,' gradually overlapping with and giving entrance to 70 incarnations within the `Hall of Learning,' this finally admitting us to a culminating series of 7 lifetimes in the `Hall of Wisdom.'

    We are even told that as few as 7 literal lifetimes may be spent in this final phase, with several instances from the current list of Great Ones being available as tangible evidence of the fact. But the point remains: It takes many, MANY lifetimes of effort and discipline before we are admitted to the Lesser, then the Greater Mysteries, although both may be imagined or visualized as a set of PILLARS [J&B] through which each Soul must and shall pass on its slow trek toward Evolutionary Perfection ~ as DIVINELY INTENDED (and certainly not just for 144,000 unless you understand the symbolism here). Consult the New Testament {Revelation ch.3 v.12} for reference.

    Thus, the other two evolutions occurring on our planet, or on any planet, in addition to that of the Monad, are those of the SOUL, or the true human being [also indwelling the mineral, vegetable, animal, Deva/Angel, etc.] *within the Form* ... and that of the FORM Itself, as the 3rd aspect of Divinity, composed for us of the lower mental body, the astral body and the physical body {with its vital, ensouling agent, a measure of the `Universal Life'/Prana/Chi}.

    So, I was ever-so-careful, and the above is really part I of II, yet with one faulty keystroke the bulk of the entry is gone ... so perhaps I will summarize, and give an abbreviated conclusion, if it becomes warranted. Often, at moments like these, I just decide that "it wasn't meant to be," and move on.

    Oh well ...
     

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