Virgin birth of jesus proved

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by nijjhar, Jan 1, 2013.

  1. nijjhar

    nijjhar Interfaith Forums

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    Part 2.

    Why in the manger of the Inn? - Now, "Inn" is symbolic of the "Church of God" in that as an "inn" is open to general public for the physical rest, so is the "Universal Church of God", open to the people of all nationalities and tribes for the "spiritual" rest or regeneration. Further, in the Church of God, unlike the Church of England, where the King/Queen of Mammon is the head, the lowest or the greatest Servant, and not a Lord, is the Head of the Church. So Jesus, our Royal High Priest being the Head of our Universal Church of God, One Fold One Shepherd, could not be born anywhere else than the lowest place, the manger of the inn and that too among the stable animals, that "serve" people as the beast of “burden”. Jesus is our Elder Anointed Brother and not a Lord. Father has Labouring sons who are entitled to the inheritance whilst a Lord has slave Disciples who are not allowed into the House of our Father. Rabbis call Yahweh a Lord and so the slave Disciples are handled by the Ruler Rabbis.

    As people are born in the tribal homes of their fathers, so, this humble Birth of Jesus in the manger of an Inn is an "implicit" proof that the Father of Jesus was not a normal father in flesh but God in Whose Universal House, the Church of God He took His Birth. The stress laid by Christ Paul that Jesus was second Adam also confirms His Virgin Birth. In fact, Joseph was a Foster father and Virgin Mary a Surrogate mother.

    Here it is worth explaining the Parable that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man, who has sucked the blood of the poor. Now, camel serves people and is humble and obedient but a rich man does not serve people but him rather rules or lords over people. So, it is easier for a humble camel to enter into the Royal Kingdom of God that has a very Narrow Gate than for a rich haughty man. That is in God, it is the service and humbleness that counts not the riches of the person. In fact, a rich person being full of the sucked blood of the poor, he is too fat to pass through the Narrow Gate.

    Now, if Queen, who is the head of Mammon in Great Britain and she is also the head of the Church of England and the so-called defender of faith, then if she herself cannot pass through the “eye” of the needle, how could the others whose faith she is defending can do so? She is rather the defender of faith in Mammon as her soldiers glorified God by defending and expanding her Empire; whilst the humble soldiers of God like the Brother William Booth was cast out of the Churches of England.

    Further, Jesus when He was twelve years old, the age at which a boy is certain who his father is, stayed behind in Jerusalem in His Father’s House whilst His foster father Joseph and Surrogate Mother Mary came looking for him, is also a proof that His Father was God and not a human one. Remember that the Hajj rites of Abraham used to be for the boys aged 12 to 16 to establish their covenants with their tribal elders and not for the grown up men or women as it is presently happening that also reflects the degree of religious Darkness. That is why Bhagat Kabir Ji refused to go to Kaba when the local Mullah invited Him to accompany him.

    Further, when he became adult to look after His Father’s Home, He turned the tables of the traders telling them that my Father’s House is for spiritual business of prayer and meditation and not for the secular businesses of making money through trading. Jesus called the Temple Winepress and He came to take Fruit. But there was none except beautiful decorations like the Fig Tree to fleece the stones, simpletons like the widow who parted with her mite.

    Now, the death of Jesus became a controversial issue among the people of the BOOK, the so-called Christians. This issue is best tackled by knowing that whatsoever applies to "flesh", the opposite applies to the matters of "spirit". Thus, in flesh every one of us has his own parents whilst in spirit all of us have God as our single Parent, both Mother and Father. Kings rest their heads in the comforts of their palaces, whereas our Royal King had no place even to rest His head. This is because Jesus was not born in a tribal home but in His Father's Home devoted to spreading Gospel, He had no tribal home to rest his head or return to. Foxes have holes, ……. Jesus’ Mother was Holy Spirit, Mahan Devan and that is why He addressed Mary as a woman.

    Kings normally die a natural death in the comforts of their palaces well attended by their courtiers and nobles whilst our Royal King Jesus was to face an un-natural death of a very humiliating nature at a place much haunted and feared by the general public and that too in the company of two criminals created by the greed of society; one of "flesh" who asked Jesus to set him free through His miraculous Powers whilst the other of "spirit" of Robin hood type acknowledged his fate but at the same time he proclaimed that Jesus is dying for no wrong doing i.e. even the criminals of "spirit" knew Jesus better than the lawyers of "letters", the Rabbis. Kings put on happily very expensive and comfortable crowns made of the artificial materials whilst our Royal King Jesus was forcibly put upon a very uncomfortable befitting crown made of the natural living thorny bush against His Will for Preaching Gospel. In fact, the death by stoning is not as humiliating and none of the Apostles met such a humiliating death as Jesus did.

    BURIAL CHAMBER: - Finally, people have their family burial chambers and they bury their generations in the same chamber until full. So, the burial of Jesus was in a newly built chamber also confirms that he had no family ties and being the second Adam was laid in a virgin burial chamber that was never used even after his burial. No one was buried in this Chamber after Jesus also confirms that He had no family and this D’Vinchi code is a fake.

    Here, it is worthwhile to mention the birth of the Second anointed Christ in the name of Satguru Nanak Dev Ji, Who appeared in India among the people of Khatri tribe, who, like the people of Judah tribe, were angelic or DEVTA people in the past enlightened Age (TRETA YUG) but they had become the most satanic people in this Dark Age. But the birth of the Second anointed Christ, called "SATGURU" in Punjabi, was not of a Virgin, as the people of the Khatri tribe had not severed their covenant with their tribal ancestors by becoming the Hindus of flesh or tribe. That is, they remained the Khatri tribal people. Thus, the spiritually sick people of Khatri tribe, especially those of Kashmir, who became Mullahs, were the sworn enemies of the Six Satgurus and the Four Royal Kings. In short, the people of Judah tribe, Princes of Darkness, in the Middle East and of the Khatri tribe, Kings and Emperors of Darkness, in India are great opportunists. They have a great love for Mammon or "GREED" and, therefore, they greatly exploited the devoted religious people for their selfish motives. Remember that all the people of a certain tribe cannot be good or bad but in general a certain trait is dominant among the people of a particular tribe.

    Further, in general, people of the West are seeking God more sincerely than the people of the East but they are mostly blind to the matters of “spirit”. This is well illustrated in the Parable of the Samaritan woman at the well – John 4, who had Five husbands, KAAM (immorality), KARODHH (anger), LOBH (greed), MOH (material love) and the Last one HANKAAR (pride of her religious knowledge as she proclaimed Jesus to be a Prophet), a husband living with her but she had overpowered it too for she engaged Jesus in deep discussion that the arrogant Pharisee Simon could not. But the Book people take the literal sense and call this most knowledgeable and pious woman, Christ Photina, Jesus ever met in His ministry as a “prostitute” marrying one husband after the other. Google for her as St.Photina.

    Unfortunately, the so-called Sikhs of beards and turbans are familiar with these five husbands but they are incapable of explaining them to the Christians either. Remember that the word “Sikh” stands for a student of spiritual knowledge and he is known by what comes out of his own mouth rather than what the Books say. Funny costumes as put on by the clerics do not make a person religious but a hypocrite, that both Jesus and Nanak condemned the most.

    So, both in Satguru Jesus and Christ Nanak, it is the “quality” of speech that counts and not the reciting of the holy verses from the Books or the dog-collars/robes of hypocrisy in which case they proclaim to be working for God but they get paid for their labour in the currency of Mammon.

    In Kal Yug or the Dark Age, everyone has to give his own account to God and those who follow the so-called Sants or holy men blindly are wasting their invaluable life as such false hypocrite Sants cannot give your account to God. Therefore, go by your own christ/satguru, the “innerman” or “ANTAR SATGURU” and experience “Philia”, “ANAND” in the company of the twice-born people of spirit/SURTI.


    “HOLY SPIRIT SHATTERS THE FETTERS OF THE LETTERS”


    Rom. 14.12: - Live by your own christ, the “innerman”.

    No christ (spirit) in your heart, no Gospel and no salvation but Hell.

    Ask Seek Knock





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  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    "The basic argument is straightforward: humans are conceived from a sperm and an egg or they are not conceived at all. The biology is really that simple.

    Whatever exceptions (e.g. here) there may be to this rule require a special set of circumstances. If you have evidence that Jesus represents such an exception, you are free to present it. In the absence of such evidence, the only rational conclusion is that Jesus was not born to a virgin (if he ever lived at all).

    (The “evidence” I’ve seen for the virgin birth is quite poor. One tack is to show that Matthew and Luke are independent reporters, but they agree on the virgin birth, and independent reporters are unlikely to agree by pure chance. Of course, no other gospel reports virgin birth, so this argument is already on shaky ground, but really, if you’re trying to claim that natural laws are suspended, you’ll have to do better than two biased accounts that have been subject to extensive alteration after the fact. Most of the other arguments I’ve seen rely on the premise that Jesus was divine, and then claim that this isn’t possible without virgin birth. Needless to say, that premise must be demonstrated before the argument can be taken seriously.)"
    George Locke @ Virgin birth? - Ask the atheists
     
  3. Shibolet

    Shibolet Member

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    If the virgin birth of Jesus has been proved? Jesus was a Jew whose Faith was Judaism and, there has never been such a thing in the Faith of Jesus. That prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled between Israel aka Ephraim and Judah the Tribe of David. According to Amos 5:2, the virgin was Israel the Ten Tribes. As he says that the virgin Israel is fallen we have a reference to the fall of Israel as it was conquered by Assyria and transferred being replaced by Assyrians sent to inhabit Samaria.

    Isaiah 7:14 - "Behold, a virgin (aka Israel) shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel."

    Isaiah 7:15 - "Butter and honey shall he (aka the son Immanuel) eat..."

    Isaiah 7:22 - "...for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the Land."

    Who was left in the Land of Israel when the People of Israel was removed by the Assyrians? Judah. The Judahites in the kingdom of the South. The Jewish People.

    Isaiah 8:8 - "And he (aka the Assyrian king) shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over; he shall reach even to the neck and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy Land O Immanuel."

    This text above of Isa. 8:8 is a reference to what happened when later on the Assyrians returned for Judah and could not conquer it. The point of the prophecy is that the child conceived by the virgin Israel was Judah. Hence Isaiah identifies Immanuel with Judah by name as the Land was of Judah. "Thy Land O Immanuel." Judah as Immanuel. As we all can see, the text has nothing to do with Jesus but, who could stop the Christian attempts at Replacement Theology?
     
  4. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    This is all a superfluous discussion. The fact is that, as Aup said, there is only one form of contraception amongst humans. The sperm and the egg. Any suggestion that Mary was impregnated by a non-corporeal entity, or God if you will has to, let me restate Has To be accepted on faith. And on faith alone.

    It is the same as the belief in the One Supreme God that is part of western traditions. Whether this entity exists or not is based completely on faith. There are no facts in evidence that can prove or disprove a God(s). Personal accounts do not count as facts!

    If you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth then simply believe it. No further proof is necessary. And there is nothing you can say that would or could convince someone who does not believe as you do.

    Yea. That stinks. Never the less, that is what it is.

    I'm on a sabbatical (of sorts) for a few days so you all take care and behave. Well behave reasonably anyway.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    So much stuff here.... isn't the word actually young maden, or unbetrothed, not virgin?

    Yup, Mary was 13 and unmarried when the book says G!d had his way with her.

    As to the Inn...There weren't any motel 6s back then, no Holiday Inns....most travelers slept outside by the roadside, or stayed with friends, family along the way. Those with real money would have their caravans and have their minions set up their tents when they rested. The little more well to do would stop at the inn...but this place was no place for a family...you wouldn't bring your kids in here, they didn't have hotel suites like we think of today....there were rooms for men, you paid to sleep four to a mat or on the floor in the men's room, or the women's room, no cohabitation unless you are paying for a shorter stay in that 'other' room. Staying in the manger with a roof over your head, away from side by side with other snoring smelly guests sharing their fleas....heaven!!

    But virgin birth, no room at the inn, these are hyperbole for the story, or fodder for the metaphor and metaphysics contained within...

    As to the same story in different books? Each author had read the previous, each author was attempting to correct or validate the previous, no feat that they have similarities.

    The real mystery? Which thread will Shib dig up next?
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Nope. Can mean all three.

    You really need to get that imagination under control. Reading facts to suit yourself, making them up when the evidence is wanting ... ;)
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Mary was not 13 and unmarried? those are not facts? (well facts according to the book)
     
  8. The Adept

    The Adept New Member

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    I liked the visit of the three zurvanite Zoroastrians to the nativity of Jesus. Very pro-Persian empire; upset the Roman Empire and all that.

    The scriptures are a circular argument like many others; The Saga's say Beowulf slew a Dragon. This does not prove the existence of Dragons.

    Anyway, Virgin is Betulot also Bethulah in Hebrew, not Almah which means young woman.
    So if a sober person wished to say 'Virgin' in Hebrew...?
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I have no idea what age she was, nor Joseph for that matter ... do you?
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    To say it means 'this' or 'that' indicates a certain agenda, if not a lack of understanding. The simple answer is, there is no simple answer.

    A 'sign' in this context means an event which confirms the prophet's words (Much in the way John uses the word 'sign' rather than 'miracle' in his Gospel, pointing to how the miracles should be interpreted.)

    Ahaz's sign will be the birth of a son to an almah.

    The word almah has no exact equivalent in English, so we're wrong to assume it means this or that, definitively.

    The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT lists 'a marriageable girl,' 'a girl who is able to be married,' and 'a young woman (until the birth of her first child)' as readings of the word.

    It's worth noting here that both 'a marriageable girl' and 'a girl who is able to be married' would imply a virgin. Where the girl is already a widow, for example, or her virtue was in doubt, another term would be used, such as when Hosea is told to marry a whore.

    A basic meaning is a woman (the age is less important) able to be married. The span of life covered by this term generally ranges from the onset of puberty to the birth of the first child.

    It is generally taken to mean a young girl or woman who has not yet borne a child. So the 'sign' is that a young girl will conceive (or has conceived and is already pregnant, the Hebrew is ambiguous) and give birth to a son.

    She is to name the boy Immanuel, meaning "God is with us" – the grammar of the Hebrew is clear that the naming will be done by the baby's mother, not the father.

    Scholars have identified the almah as either the mother of Hezekiah, or the daughter of Isaiah. As ever, there are problems with both candidates. The dating of the text and the evidence means Hezekiah's dates do not line up with the prophecy, and Isaiah's daughter already had a son.

    +++

    Their koine Greek translation renders almah as parthenos, a word which has a similar 'slippery' context, meaning 'maiden' but usually implying 'virgin'.

    Jewish scholars still argue about it, Christian scholars do the same ... anyone who steps up here as says it's definitively this or that is expressing an opinion, nothing more.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Jeez, Wil, you've really imagined this up a storm, haven't you :rolleyes:

    So you say.

    But if we're into fictions, I muse along these lines:
    Joseph has to take his spouse to his home town to register. So he will have friends and family there. Why not stay with them?

    Because he turns up with a woman who's already pregnant, who conceived while they were engaged, but he says he's not the father of the child.

    And they say, 'you're not bringing your whore through my front door!' :eek:
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Agreed Thomas....just the no room at the inn....not unusual at tax time...not unusual to sleep outside, an inn would not have a room for her and him... at best she would have slept with the women (who I would think would have helped with the childbirth) but inn women ain't the women he'd want Mary with)
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Joseph
     
  14. The Adept

    The Adept New Member

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  15. The Adept

    The Adept New Member

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    Bethlehem, south of Jerusalem, was not repopulated after the exile until long after the alleged and unproven events. The writer may have been unaware of this; or confused his Bethlehems.
     
  16. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    It was December. Was it not?
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Not even....that was made up to move the birth close to the bacchanalian celebration for the solstice. The current understanding I believe is somewhere April to June.
     
  18. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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  19. Shibolet

    Shibolet Member

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    I agree with you. So, either Jesus was conceived by Mary with Joseph or with Pantera. And the blame for the implied tragedy is in the hands of all those who deny that Joseph was a biological father to Jesus.
     
  20. Shibolet

    Shibolet Member

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    Probably some thing akin to the fact that the English term for virgin makes no difference if the virgin is "Betulah" a physical virgin or just "Almah" a young woman. The reference used by the Prophet in Isaiah 7:14 is that of an "Almah" aka a young woman which in prophetic language was Israel who before collapsing at the hands of Assyria gave birth to Judah and, metaphorically expired from her birth pangs.
     

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