A Call to War

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by radarmark, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Overt Politics:

    For those of you who live in the USA, especially those of you who believe in the Second Amendment (as I do) but think the extreme reactionary response of the NRA is beyond the pale, check out the new NRA "ad" and the new NRA "app".

    Here is what I believe the populous should do (this is just my humble opinion, and not the "dirty tricks" of a government "agent" as some of you have implied):

    1) Any and all hackers should
    a )use their skills to destroy the app.
    b) infect the NRA (and related sites like Gun Owners of Amerkkka, GOA) with a many highly contageous viruses and worms as possible.
    c) bring down those same sites after sufficient time has passed so that the entire coporate (pun intended) is fatally infected.

    2) Some well-financed moderate to progressive group with the guts should form a new "NRA-like" group to:
    a) campaign for a District of Columbia v. Heller solution based on the fact that assault weapons (or those designs based upon military weaponry) must be considered for a ban, that if you need more than 10 rounds for a long-gun the solution is to go go the range and practice (thus enabling any long-gun clips of over ten are outlawed and making sure clips cannot be duct taped together).
    b) firmly represent real hunting and self-defense rights and not the too-blatant "we need these weapons to overthrow the governement" stance implicitly made by Wayne LaPierre and explicitly made by Larry Platt.
    c) target NRA members to leave the NRA for the new org.
    d) name it some fancy title like "Gun Owners for the USA" or "The Real Minutemen" or "Rifle Association of the Real USA" or "The 99% Solution".

    3) The old Obama for America campaign expertise should be tapped to: a) pressure all Congresspeople, targeting supporters in NRA-held seats with massive letter writing and petition campaigns within their districts. b) begin a single nation-wide petition to support whatever is announced today by the Obama administration (I do not think anything will be contrary to the intent of DC v. Heller, if it is take it off the petition to get maximum participation)
    c) make sure that at a minimum, the movie, television, and gaming rating codes are changed (voluntarily) to get the desensitizing and gratuitous blood-thirstiness of all three forms on entertainment in check.

    :( I am a very sad puppy that the organization I used to be so proud to belong to and learned weapon safety from has turned into what I believe the number one domestic threat to the safety and security of these United States of America.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I'm at a complete crossroads....

    I believe the second ammendement not to be about hunting or personal protection...but about a citizenry being able to defend itself against a rogue gov't.

    I believe we should have anti tank weaponry and surface to air missles...I have huge issues with the Obama Peace Prize winner Judge Jury Executioner of thousands with drones now instituting weapons bans...I am beside myself and have no answers...

    I am pro gun checks, and getting them out of the hands of mentally challenged....it is an issue I cannot wrap my head completely around...

    I agree the NRA has issues....and am concerned more about the response to the recent events than the events themselves.
     
  3. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Not to take away from your OP.

    But I find the issue to a non-issue.

    If you were in-charge. Why would it not have come to your mind.

    Seems that after 4 years of Obama's leadership there will be a legacy that "It never occured to any of the Lawyer in the US Government ---that a Loop hole existed where a sociopath can buy Tommy-guns"

    The invention of a "Posse" should have been anticipated by mindful law-makers standing around working Teacher's Hours [not 24/7], long before there was a minute man call alarm rings.

    The US President should cry and bow beg forgiveness for the lack of attention to details (like a disgraced japanese business man) rather than claim he is the inventor of some unforeseen modern invention.

    Any restrictive proposed law will pass unanimously.
    And then some will claim how it is a complicated issue?
    This is like saying "There must be Law to punish Drunk driving" ---Genius! Genius I Tell ya!

    The issue is is about stoping selling and Buying MACHINE-GUNS & Cartridges ---its about stopping CRAZIES from getting MACHINE-GUNS & Cartridges. That okay. But that's wagging the Dog.

    God Save the Lawyers in the US Government and their Loop holes.
     
  4. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Thank you both. I do not fear either an informed nor an armed citizenry. It is not about machine-guns (the NRA in the 30s helped end the sales of fully automatic weapons). It is, you are both correct, about keeping weapons out of the hands of crazies. And I am afraid, bhaktajan, even the simplest bill (background check for all sales) cannot pass without mobilizing the citizenry.
     
  5. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    As long as a government, NRA, and any other criminal can't make us own a weapon, or use a weapon, then it seems we do have a vote, don't we.

    Shame to those who go around making a weapon, selling a weapon, owning a weapon, carrying a weapon, using or solving their problems with a weapon.
     
  6. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    wil -- yes, the militia was the original reason for the amendment. However, the laws and courts (supported by the early NRA) more or less got rid of the "arm however you want" as a response to Machine Gun Kelly (Thompson Violin) and Clyde Barker (BAR used as "cop killer").

    So I merely reflect what the current interpretation is. If push came to shove and we did need a militia to confront the government, we are outta luck (unless you count on National Guard). The last big militia movement was called the Civil War, which did not end up well for the militias.

    The Constitution is not a suicide pact. I believe we have more to fear from terrorism from the right than usurpation from the left. The middle (which I define as anyone from Goldwater to Ted Kennedy) is reasonable and needs defense from both extremes.
     
  7. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro Moderator

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    Um, wil, a few tidbits of information that I came across concerning three of the Sandy Hook Elementary School, Brookfield WI, and Oak Creek shootings (two which occurred relatively near where I live [as you kinda know]):

    1) the guns involved in the Sandy Hook/Newtown shootings didn't belong to the shooter, but his mother, and she was the first victim that day

    2) the shooter in Brookfield, WI gave up all of his publicly/legally purchased guns and ammunition to the police as was ordered by the judge in the restraining order/injunction against him. He then bought the gun and ammunition he used to kill his estranged/ex-wife, two of her coworkers and himself as well as seriously injuring three other coworkers through the internet from a private seller

    3) the gun used in the Sikh Temple shooting in Oak Creek, WI was also acquired privately, and, unlike the Brookfield case, he didn't have any major run-ins with the law before the spree (his ex-girlfriend, on the other hand...) He just was a fringe member of the White Supremacist "community", mostly going around with his band. He also served in the military after G.W. Bush got the US involved in Iraq (got a discharge without honor or just a plain discharge.)

    One oftentimes cannot tell what'll happen after a gun is legally purchased. Hell, sometimes the registered owner sells it to someone, sometimes the registered owner dies and wills the gun to a relative or a friend, sometimes the gun is stolen from the registered owner. Then, again, sometimes the purchaser isn't the one who actually owns the gun (a gun shop around here has been in court several times for helping what is sometimes called "third-party purchases" for gangbangers.)

    Hell, sometimes the guns are stolen from the gun shop (that happened over a decade ago here in Milwaukee, and the owner was killed in the robbery.)

    The only other thing I can say is that the framers of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights didn't have the problems that have cropped up due to the internet and related stuff. :(

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  8. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    I think the only sword that can be rightfully used against a government is the tongue, but with love and faith: demand a relationship and if none exists, then none exists. It cuts both ways. There is a power that can totally destroy a government, and there is a power that can totally destroy a public. The members of a government and the public had best start learning that lesson. The public should not limit themselves to a vote, and neither should any wife.
     
  9. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    I am reminded (remorsefully) of spoken lines from Anton Chekhov plays, like # Sisters and Cherry Orchard, where ladys of the Household would pine and proclaim, "Oh how will the future be in a 100 years?"

    The 1870's onward were such idyllic times for intellectual thought and expression ---this ended in a couple of generations--- and got much worse for further genrations ... then came hippy music pathos ... while the 3rd world caught pace.

    The angst that those 'Three Sisters' spoke are now words that WE know the history of ---so for those that didn't forget, the irony is sombering and causes me to loose my breath and think of what to do about it now.

    [​IMG]

     
  10. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    What I've found most concerning about the pro-gun campaigns online, is that none of the ones I've seen try and use any kind of rational argument for keeping the lid on gun control.

    Instead, there's a lot of fear mongering - images of Hitler posted to Facebook, claiming that he "disarmed" the German population, hence allowing him to take power. Which is utterly false.

    And when this is pointed out, people step in and say whether something is true or not doesn't matter, as long as the message is carried. Which makes no sense to me.

    Btw, didn't Americans sign all your rights away after 9/11, so that you can be spied upo, imprisoned, and tortured - without any due process of trial - just so long as someone claims you might be a terrorist? I didn't see that citizen army rise up, then. But, of course, it was already marching to the drum of the fear mongering, even then.

    Seems guns and fear mongering go together these days.
     
  11. luecy7

    luecy7 New Member

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    Excellent question. If a person believes that a government does own and write the code of conduct for the citizens, or that the citizens voted and agree to the government, then yes... it seems the citizens are responsible for the government debt, the behavior of government, the wars, the people killed or banned, everything owned or done by government, and as you say: the signing away of the citizen rights.

    In that case a husband or wife is responsible for the sins of their spouse, because they voted for or loved them... and the sins of a neighbor are the fault of their neighbors, because they chose to live there... and the sins of a citizen are the fault of the government, because they chose to govern.

    Alternatively though if it is that every individual writes a code of conduct by their own conduct and words, especially as they interact with others, then I submit that rights are never really signed away, and similarly the responsibility is not so easily signed away either.

    All too easy to write the agreement in one way, and then end up on the other side of the fence where it is preferred to have the agreement in another way. As an example: Gun control... just how much control does the public have over the government development, purchase, use, sale, and exportation, of guns? If gun control is good, then gun control is good... right?
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    In hearings today there were statements about gun laws....and background checks...and the fact that tens of thousands of folks have failed background checks....yet only a few thousand were even prosecuted...

    The NRA was recommending the laws on the books be enforced, that our current gun control methodology is broken....

    What is done when someone fails a background check? You know if they've filled out all the paperwork they are going get a gun...whether the paperwork is approved or not...
     

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