What I believe.....

Gordian Knot

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The problem, Tea, is we do not all understand each other. Not when we cannot know what definition is being used because everyone makes up their own. This has nothing to do with language evolving. An example of language evolving is that the use of adverbs has all but disappeared over the past few decades. That is an evolution, a change in language usage, but it does not affect the definition.

The famous Apple slogan "Think different!" is grammatically incorrect. It should be "Think differently!" But we know what they mean so it is okay.

Using a word to mean something other than what its definition is can only cause confusion. And geez, we humans have a hard enough time communicating as it is!
 

ammad2011

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I believe in interfaith so we should communicate each other for building better relation.
 
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A Cup Of Tea

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The problem, Tea, is we do not all understand each other. Not when we cannot know what definition is being used because everyone makes up their own. This has nothing to do with language evolving. An example of language evolving is that the use of adverbs has all but disappeared over the past few decades. That is an evolution, a change in language usage, but it does not affect the definition.

The famous Apple slogan "Think different!" is grammatically incorrect. It should be "Think differently!" But we know what they mean so it is okay.

Using a word to mean something other than what its definition is can only cause confusion. And geez, we humans have a hard enough time communicating as it is!

Words never change meaning in your reality!?
 

wil

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There you go ... a self-serving construct.

Same with Rabbi Tzvi Freeman's quote ... it's cool, but it doesn't really stand up to any logical criticism:

Like people know that smoking is bad for them, but keep on smoking.
This is just sophistry, Wil.

Ask anyone who actually walks the walk, and they'd laugh at this posturing at 'insight'.
I look at it this way.... the jewish book is 2/3's the bible...the christian book was written by Jews...so I tend to give Jews some credence...

hee hee especially when I agree with them.

"...I call myself a Christian..."

--> What is your definition of the word Christian?

One who attempts to follow the teachings of the Christ. One who attempts to put Christ mind in his/her mind. Many Christians read the history of Jesus and the teachings of Moses (big on ten commandments) I think it should be the other way around....a new commandment I give to you....
 

Nick the Pilot

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"One who attempts to follow the teachings of the Christ."

--> But this leaves out the other side of the coin. What about people who choose not to accept Jesus as their own personal savior? I think a definition of 'Christian' must also contain a provision addressing what Christians think of people who are non-Christians (especially since so many 'Christians' make such a big deal about it). If a Christian thinks a non-Christian is going to go to hell because the non-Christian chooses not to follow Jesus, this needs to be made clear.

I believe that all good Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc., are making progress toward an 'eternal reward'. Clearly, Christianity teaches otherwise, especially when these Buddhists etc. have heard of Jesus and choose not to follow him.
 

Thomas

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I believe that all good Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc., are making progress toward an 'eternal reward'. Clearly, Christianity teaches otherwise...
Then those Christians should be challenged on those grounds, and so, I fear, should those who continue to assert such, evidently having made no effort to determine the truth of the matter, but rather do so in support of their own prejudices, in the hope of widening the divisions between us all.

There is an article here that I suggest is worth reading.

It's long and well informed, but I can offer an extract that gives the general tenor of the piece, and this from the Orthodox Archbishop Kallistos Ware:
“Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church” ...

Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: “How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!” (Homilies on John, 45, 12)

While there is no division between a “visible” and an “invisible Church”, yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.”
I hope you find it enlightening. It will certainly put such ideas to rest.
 

wil

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"One who attempts to follow the teachings of the Christ."

--> But this leaves out the other side of the coin. What about people who choose not to accept Jesus as their own personal savior? I think a definition of 'Christian' must also contain a provision addressing what Christians think of people who are non-Christians (especially since so many 'Christians' make such a big deal about it). If a Christian thinks a non-Christian is going to go to hell because the non-Christian chooses not to follow Jesus, this needs to be made clear.

I believe that all good Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc., are making progress toward an 'eternal reward'. Clearly, Christianity teaches otherwise, especially when these Buddhists etc. have heard of Jesus and choose not to follow him.

It is perfectly fine for others to not follow the teachings of Christ, that doesn't make them bad, simply not Christian. I don't accept Jesus as my own personal saviour...I accept his teachings of a living a life of Christ consciousness to lead me to a position to save myself.

I believe we are all on a path of our choosing, and that many paths can reach the same understanding. Thomas provided his take on this situation and millions of Christians accept similarly....there are of course in all religions those that believe their way is the only way and the rest of the world are heathens, infidels, whatever...this includes Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims as well...

but you knew that.
 

Nick the Pilot

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Wil,

You have said that being Christian includes thinking it is perfectly fine for others to not follow the teachings of Christ. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.
 

Aupmanyav

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...this includes Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims as well...
Take out Hindus and Buddhists from the list. We do not say that your way is bad. We just ask you not to denigrate our ways (without understanding :)). Is that too much to ask?
(Changed the avatara image, the 'swasti' is clearer here ;))
 

Nick the Pilot

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Aupmanyav,

Wil is saying this is true of some Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims, but not all.

But this brings up an interesting question. Let's say that a Buddhist person meets another person who has heard of Buddhism, but this second person chooses not to be a Buddhist. Does this Buddhist person then think that this second person will go to hell? I don't there are any Buddhists who think this way.
 

wil

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Wil,

You have said that being Christian includes thinking it is perfectly fine for others to not follow the teachings of Christ. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.


How can we disagree when millions of Christians think this way?


Aup, When it comes to dogmatic fanaticism of I am right and you are wrong Mulsims and Christians win with the highest percentage of adherents thinking this way...while Hindus and Buddhists are well down the chart on this, they exist, and I am sure you are aware of that.
 

Gordian Knot

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Wil, you seem to stating two opposing views in the same post.

First you say that millions of Christian think it is fine not to follow the teachings of Christ.

Your very next statement is that Christians and Muslims are by far the worst groups when it comes to the philosophy of "my way or the highway".

What am I missing?
 

Gordian Knot

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Thomas said "While there is no division between a “visible” and an “invisible Church”, yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say.

This one of those if/then statements that constantly confuse me. If someone who is not of the visible church, but is known to God to be a member, they are saved. Therefor if one has been saved, they must have been a member of the church and just under cover.

Not to mention that we mere mortals have zero clue who has actually been saved and who have not, since that happens beyond this realm of existence.....
 

Nick the Pilot

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"How can we disagree when millions of Christians think this way?"
 
--> You seem to be saying that I must be out of my mind to disagree with millions of people just because they hold a particular opinion. You seem to be saying that, if millions of people believe an idea, it must be right, and I am being foolish in not recognizing the ‘strong evidence’ which ‘proves’ such an idea to be true.
 
But an idea is not automatically right or correct or ‘proved’ just because millions of people believe it. I don’t know if it was millions of people, but not too long ago, a ‘large number of people’ believed that the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. (Many of these people were Christians.) And it’s safe to say that even today ‘millions’ of Christians believe the earth was created about 6,000 years ago in seven 24-hours periods, and that evolution never happened. I do not feel a ‘compulsion-by-numbers’ to believe any of these four ideas, I strongly cheer on other people who feel the same, and I invite you to cheer along with me.

Not too long ago, a college basketball coach expressed his opinion that it is lunacy to have a conference championship tournament, after the conference championship has already been determined via league play. When he was told that ‘everyone else is doing it’ he retorted, "If everyone else jumps off a cliff, should we jump along with them?"
 
 

A Cup Of Tea

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Wil, you seem to stating two opposing views in the same post.

First you say that millions of Christian think it is fine not to follow the teachings of Christ.

Your very next statement is that Christians and Muslims are by far the worst groups when it comes to the philosophy of "my way or the highway".

What am I missing?

I think the distinction is that an unknown number of a given group dose not represent the group as a whole. I don't see how and awful lot of people can hold ignorant ideas about a thing while the other part of the group doesn't. If Christians and Muslims are the worst on a scale, they are still on a scale.
 

wil

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Wil, you seem to stating two opposing views in the same post.

First you say that millions of Christian think it is fine not to follow the teachings of Christ.

Your very next statement is that Christians and Muslims are by far the worst groups when it comes to the philosophy of "my way or the highway".

What am I missing?
There are millions of Christians that are interfaith oriented and not only allow exploration of other beliefs but encourage it, and totally accept other cultures and beliefs and honor those that follow other traditions without judgement or condemnation....but there are hundreds of millions of Christians that are as you indicate...intolerant and judgemental and believe the literal fundamental teachings back them up and require them to do so... So both exist.
"How can we disagree when millions of Christians think this way?"
 
--> You seem to be saying that I must be out of my mind to disagree with millions of people just because they hold a particular opinion. You seem to be saying that, if millions of people believe an idea, it must be right, and I am being foolish in not recognizing the ‘strong evidence’ which ‘proves’ such an idea to be true.
 
But an idea is not automatically right or correct or ‘proved’ just because millions of people believe it. I don’t know if it was millions of people, but not too long ago, a ‘large number of people’ believed that the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. (Many of these people were Christians.) And it’s safe to say that even today ‘millions’ of Christians believe the earth was created about 6,000 years ago in seven 24-hours periods, and that evolution never happened. I do not feel a ‘compulsion-by-numbers’ to believe any of these four ideas, I strongly cheer on other people who feel the same, and I invite you to cheer along with me.

Not too long ago, a college basketball coach expressed his opinion that it is lunacy to have a conference championship tournament, after the conference championship has already been determined via league play. When he was told that ‘everyone else is doing it’ he retorted, "If everyone else jumps off a cliff, should we jump along with them?"
 

Not even, I am not saying you don't have a right to disagree with millions of peole...no intention or implication of that.

I am saying that there are millions of followers of Jesus who respect and honor folks of other faiths, folks that reject Jesus as their saviour and we don't think those folks are going to hell for doing so, quite the opposite we honor their beliefs and defend their right to do so as well.

I am understanding that you are indicating we don't exist.
 

Aupmanyav

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But this brings up an interesting question. Let's say that a Buddhist person meets another person who has heard of Buddhism, but this second person chooses not to be a Buddhist. Does this Buddhist person then think that this second person will go to hell? I don't there are any Buddhists who think this way.
Never, and so does the follower of any Indian religion (Jainism, Sikhism, or Hinduism). This is because we think that one's deeds are the only deciders. A Christian or a Muslim who engages in good deeds cannot go to hell (that would falsify our own Gods and Goddess. How could they send a meritorious person to hell? Never done), and I am sure, there are millions of them (in India and a few billion in the world), in spite of their faulty insistence on their Gods and books :)) and we are ready to overlook that).
 

Nick the Pilot

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"...we don't think those folks are going to hell for doing so..."

--> I disagree. This is not how I see Christianity at all. Like I said, I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think it's good we can discuss openly and honestly how Christians and non-Christians view the Christian religion, and the differences therein. I think there is value in these kinds of discussions. Most importantly, the more all of us can learn and practice agreeing to disagree, and doing it in a civil way, the more all of us will benefit. This is what ecumenicalism is all about. The vast majority of religious people never acknowledge the other person's point of view, and this is one of the most important things for us to learn.
 
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