I like Pope Francis!!

Discussion in 'Interfaith Text Study' started by wil, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    The Third Vatican Council concluded today with Pope Francis announcing that Catholicism is now a “modern and reasonable religion, which has undergone evolutionary changes. The time has come to abandon all intolerance. We must recognize that religious truth evolves and changes. Truth is not absolute or set in stone. Even atheists acknowledge the divine. Through acts of love and charity the atheist acknowledges God as well, and redeems his own soul, becoming an active participant in the redemption of humanity.”

    In my life two Popes have 'spoke' to me. Pope John Paul II made huge interfaith strides...and really began upgrading the Catholic Church in my mind. Ratzinger, was the pendelum swing backwards...which caused a new pendelum swing in the council when they brought on this new fellow and what a breath of fresh air!!

    ALL RELIGIONS ARE TRUE, ADAM AND EVE A FABLE, HELL IS A MERE METAPHOR – says Pope Francis | mojidanisa2
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Wil —

    This is a hoax ...
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    The success of this hoax is largely due to its appeal to the consumer mindset that governs the Western way of thinking. As it seems quite widespread, I thought I might cast some light on the issues mentioned.

    The Third Vatican Council ...
    There is no such council.

    We must recognize that religious truth evolves and changes.
    In the Great Traditions, 'religious truth' neither evolves nor changes. Authentic 'religious truth' is founded in the Absolute, in that which transcends the personal narrative.

    The idea that religions 'evolve' is founded on a fundamental failure to comprehend what religion is, or indeed what truth is. In the Philosophical relativism of the West, it has long been recognised that 'truth' increasingly takes second place to personal narrative — there is no truth as such, there are only those truths that are true because I choose to accept them as such.

    The same error assumes God likewise 'grows' or 'evolves', it assumes God as an extension of the physical world, that God is subject to space and time and thereby contingency. Its an anthropomorphic projection, as such a God is and can only be the exemplar of how one conceives oneself.

    Truth is not absolute or set in stone.
    Again, truth is treated as a product.

    The church no longer believes in a literal hell where people suffer.
    I think the Church believes, and Pope Francis himself has stated his own belief, in hell. Whether the author understands what Catholicism understands is dubious.

    The consumer desire is for a God who 'evolves' to meet and match the world, that is a God who changes to accommodate me. The appeal of such a God is obvious.

    The moral dimension is utterly missing, but then 'morality' is at best a dubious concept in marketing. Moral values are determined largely by the profit margin.

    It's not so much an evolution as a repackaging, or a rebranding. The majority of the US denominations are founded on and shaped by commercial interest: the broader the popular appeal, the more successful the product. For the broadest popular appeal, you want a God that rewards the most, for the least effort.

    The God of the consumer is basically a projection of a personal exemplar. I could be as good as God if I so chose, but I'm not, but that's OK because God accepts me as I am.

    This doctrine is incompatible with the infinite love of God.
    No it's not. It's just that the doctrine of justice is incompatible with consumerism.

    The above would assume it's OK to rape, pillage, murder, etc., because the infinite compassion of God will forgive, which is patently nonsense, and patently self-serving. It's a version of God with the greatest consumer appeal.

    In a wider context, it's OK for high-cost consumer cultures to thrive at the expense of the rest of the world, because we make cars and burgers and personal computers available in return. It's not my fault if you can't afford them.

    Then, you make 'giving' worthwhile because there is a benefit to me — I feel good about myself, and God loves me.

    God is not a judge but a friend and a lover of humanity
    Who says a judge cannot be a friend or lover?

    Again, a rampantly self-serving notion: "If you really love me, you'd accept me for what I am" — therefore God has to change to accommodate me, not the other way round.

    Like the fable of Adam and Eve, we see hell as a literary device.
    The trouble is that people assume 'a literary device' is not worthy of serious contemplation. It's a literary device, therefore it is not true, that which is alluded to is a fantasia rather than something comprehended by the transcending intellect.

    Because the material mind can only perceive the material as possessing any reality, and any value ... the material is validated by its very materiality. This is one of the reasons for the lack or failure of moral insight, the material mind operates entirely pragmatically.

    What is missed by the material mindset is the very thing the metaphor alludes to. The function of the metaphor (like that of the myth, the parable, the analogy) transcends the material, were that not the case then metaphor would not be necessary and its object would possess a comprehensible materiality.

    The contemplation of the metaphor is not not merely an intellectual exercise, and its fruit is not a clever insight into human nature.

    The function of the metaphor is akin to a koan. But then the materialist purchases a book of 'solutions' to the koans, as if knowing the answer is the point. As if by parroting the answer, they are illumined.

    Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul...
    Here the assumption that a metaphor possesses no intrinsic value.

    ... which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God
    Ah, the Credo of the Materialist: Nothing really matters, because I get the Reward in the end. The Mantra of the Materialist is: "Gimme"

    God is changing and evolving as we are
    Again, the anthropomorphic God which is simply 'my ideal me'.

    For God lives in us and in our hearts.
    God is that what we want that we as yet have not got.

    When we spread love and kindness in the world, we touch our own divinity and recognize it.
    'That's why we do it ... not for your sake, but for mine.'
    Again, rampant self-serving materialism in which everything is reduced to the pragmatic. There is no such thing as altruism in this world, man is incapable of selfless good, everyone has an agenda.

    The Bible is a beautiful holy book, but like all great and ancient works, some passages are outdated.
    Yes, it needs to be repacked for the spiritual tourist ... and it needs to get rid of the bits I don't like, or doesn't understand my situation ...
     
  4. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Hell is merely a metaphor for the isolated soul, which like all souls ultimately will be united in love with God” Pope Francis declared. This is so true. The bashing of the catholic church should end. They have been a target for liberals who do not believe in their teachings. With the new pope who apparently has a good religious insight maybe the bashing will end. I am sure the liberals are not happy with the new situation because it would be difficult for them to attack Pope Francis thereby making it difficult to attack the church itself.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    http://en.radiovaticana.va/in2/m_articolo.asp?c=73815

    I still Like Pope Francis!

     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    So can I expect you to become a Catholic?
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    You just condemned me for the use of that quote on another thread...for being materialistic and new age....

    I liked JPII too, but me Catholic, nah. But I can't list the reasons, as you get upset.
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Yep. That stands.

    It's not so much upset.

    Following 2 Timothy 3:16, I challenge your cant and hypocrisy, and point out the errors in your logic, and I will admit the idea of you filling the heads of children with your prejudice and fantasies does annoy ... but then I have always said that I battle here to protect the weak and the innocent in the face of injustice.

    I'm a bit pugnacious perhaps, I'll admit that. It's my Gaelic genes. And I take my faith seriously. I care about what I believe to be true.

    But I think I've stated my case as to the 'brand' of pseudo-Christianity you're into, and you seem quite wedded to that, so I'll no longer argue with you.

    I reserve the right to post for the sake of balance or clarity, but from now on I shall not challenge you personally, and leave you to your own opinions.
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I've got no issues when you challenge my beliefs. I'm open for discussion. It is just when I challenge yours or point out something in the news...it is catholic bashing. If I make comments regarding the fallacies and errancies in the bible, you want to know why I don't throw it all in the waste basket.

    I like what this pope says, but I am in a conversation, not a conversion. I dislike a lot of what the US does, but am not ready to overthrow the gov't or move. I like some teachings of the Buddha, but have no current interest in becoming Buddhist. I like Australia...but I am not moving....

    But I am open to see where it all takes me in the future....I just may be an Australian Buddhist someday...my mind is not closed....

    I am comfortable in my beliefs...along with the millions that believe as I. Without the threat of hell or being told we are all unworthy sinners we live on, worshipping, studying, following the teachings in the stories of our elder brother and wayshower, Jesus the Christ.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I, too, am here for discussion, but please don't take umbrage when I point out what I see as the flaws in your logic.

    I'd rather you discuss the point, but you resort to sophistry and aunt sally mode of argument which is hardly constructive. If I'm too tough on you, just say so ...

    I don't see how airing your bitterness towards the Church, or playing host to the complaints of embittered ex-Catholics, counts as a challenge to my beliefs. It looks like Catholic-bashing to me. You pay too much attention to a particular voice, it seems to me, your comments lack balance.

    I do have issues with the Church and its doctrines, but I try to seek constructive solutions, and make my suggestions where I hope they might have some effect.

    Because your criticisms are all-inclusive. You criticise the 'agendas' of the authors, as you see it. You accuse them at best of misunderstanding, even of purposefully and perniciously misrepresenting the truth, of preaching lies and self-aggrandisement ... then in the next breath you cite their texts (usually out of context and contrary to their near-universal understanding) as if that was proof of something ... on no clear ground other than they seem to assert that which you have a priori decided is the case.

    If one follows the logic of your argument to its rational conclusion, one could only honestly declare oneself agnostic.

    Please try and acknowledge that we, too, live in the twenty-first century. Your sources of your insight with regard to Catholicism sound like the worst kind of medieval excess to this particular Catholic, and I doubt there's many here who consider me a liberal when it comes to matters of dogma!

    But put that into contemporary language: Does that not mean you believe, based on the teachings of Our Lord, that we are free to do as we will, without fear of consequence? That we are not responsible, nor held accountable, for our actions?

    That's an ideology that sits very uncomfortably with me.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Thomas, you know well and good I believe we are punished by our sins, not for them.

    And you know I believe in personal responsiblity and that all actions have consequences, thoughts in mind appear in kind.

    Funny the game you like to play sometimes...

    I know you aren't going to like this, but I was at a wonderful Shabbot service tonight. We sang and chanted, and meditated. A 60 year old Catholic came up and told me he converted to Judaism the day before...
     
  12. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Wil,

    You said,

    "Funny the game you like to play sometimes..."

    --> Do you remember the song Games People Play from the 60's?

    "A 60 year old Catholic came up and told me he converted to Judaism the day before..."

    --> fascinating. If you get a chance, tell us the story. I am always fascinated to hear of people changing religions and their reasons why.
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Convenience I believe.

    over 30 years ago he married a Jewish girl...he had gone to temple since they were married, they raised their kids in Judaism, and a couple years ago he began studying in ernest and on the 9th he converted.

    In my discussion with him, he believed the most important thing was the connection to spirit. One can choose a ford or chevy...what ever it takes to get you there.
     
  14. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    "...he had gone to temple since they were married, they raised their kids in Judaism, and a couple years ago he began studying in ernest and on the 9th he converted."

    --> It sounds like he has had a strong affinity for Judaism for a long time.

    "One can choose a ford or chevy...what ever it takes to get you there."

    --> I agree that a good Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., are all making progress along the path.

    I am reminded of how, many years ago, the Catholic church forced my Catholic uncle's Protestant fiancé to convert to Catholicism before the two of them were allowed to get married. Years later, he left the Catholic church and converted to her Protestant church. Karma!
     
  15. SatyamAbhidi

    SatyamAbhidi Member

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    My name is Francis.

    They are doing as they're told.

    Be more humble.

    You represent, you aren't it.
     
  16. SatyamAbhidi

    SatyamAbhidi Member

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    I actually sent the Vatican an e-mail.

    The address had my name.

    This is literally what I ordered...
     
  17. SatyamAbhidi

    SatyamAbhidi Member

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    I sent it to the old Pope, though.

    He quit, dishonored.

    Usually Pope is 4lyf
     
  18. SatyamAbhidi

    SatyamAbhidi Member

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    The obelisks in Vatican City are Shiva Lingams.

    Little more refined, less obvious.

    Pyramid is cuz it kept falling down.

    A lot have a path too, that is shaktism.

    Goddess worship, the lingam leads to yoni.

    God and Goddess worship is central.

    Male and Female aspects, glorified.

    He is Yogeshvara, the principle seed.

    The womb is still without the seed.

    His seed is life, she is the vessel.
     
  19. SatyamAbhidi

    SatyamAbhidi Member

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    Cave is Shakti, you are entering yoni.
    Fire is Shiva, lingam.

    Muhammad went to cave.
    Jesus went to the dessert which is hot.

    Shakti is other than Shiva.
    Shiva is not other than Shiva.
    Except that he's his Shakti.

    Because who needs logic.
     
  20. SatyamAbhidi

    SatyamAbhidi Member

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    Moses is Father, he based his notions on "Father", which is what Abraham means.

    He said it came from Jacob, it is Israel, this is what binds this nation.

    The children are Vishnu and Brahma, to make it clear, Shiva has two children: Ganesha and Kartikeya. Ganesha is miracles, Karikeya is normal guy it seems, but is worshiped.

    He insisted on Nirguna, it shows Moses knew... and the bush agrees.
    Muhammad is same... yet both are saying it is not the form.

    Jesus says he cannot imagine being equal to the Father.
    Before Abraham was, I am...

    Shiva was first, Nirguna... then Shakti, Seguna.

    He is a product of Gnostics, Hellenistic groups, lots...

    They were all in communication with Yogi's.

    Sufi's came later, of course, as the Christians went nuts, they moved East.
    As the Muhammadans went nuts, they moved East.

    Everything is going back home.

    The East is balancing too, getting in on the fun of matter again.
     

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