22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by A Cup Of Tea, Feb 10, 2014.

  1. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution
    Wil posted this on the other tread, but I thought we might try and a act civil for a moment and answer the questions to the best of our abilities. From People-Who-Believe-In-Evolution to Creationists, a friendly reply.

    Personal preference:
    Can't we try too keep this an ordered list of answers, there are plenty of space on the board to war over these issues?
     
  2. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    1. Bill Nye, Are you influencing the minds of children in a positive way?

    2. Are you scared of a Divine Creator?

    3. Is it completely illogical that the earth was created mature? i.e. the trees created with rings... Adam created as an adult...

    4. Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove Evolution?

    5. How do you explain a sunset if their is no God?

    6. If the Big Bang Theory is true and taught as science along with evolution, why do the laws of thermodynamics debunk said theories?

    7. WHAT ABOUT NOETICS?

    8. Where do you derive objective meaning in life?

    9. If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism originate? By chance?

    10. I believe in the Big Bang Theory... God said it and BANG it happened!

    11. Why do evolutionists/secularists/humanists/non-God believing people reject the idea of their being a creator God but embrace the concept of intelligent design from aliens or other extra-terestrial sources?

    12. There is no inbetween... the only one found has been Lucy and there are only a few pieces of the hundreds necessary for an "official proof"
    (I had trouble reading her hand writing and understanding the question. Help me with this one)

    13. Does metamorphosis help support evolution?

    14. If Evolution is a Theory (like creationism or the Bible) why then is Evolution taught as fact.

    15. Because science by definition is a "theory" -not testable, observable, nor repeatable" why do you object to creationism or intelligent design being taught in school?

    16. What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process?

    17. What purpose do you think you are here for if you do not believe in salvation?

    18. Why have we found only 1 "Lucy", when we have found more then 1 of everything else?

    19. Can you believe in "the big bang" without "faith"?

    20. How can you look at the world and not believe someone created/thought of it? It's Amazing!!!

    21. Relating to the big bang theory... Where did the exploding star come from?

    22. If we come from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?
     
  3. Paladin

    Paladin Purchased Bewilderment

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    Numbers 4 and 6 seem to ask the same question, so here's a little short article I found on the web by Robert N. Oerter, from George Mason University.
    Does Life On Earth Violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics

    Hope that helps on that issue.

    Some of the questions, such as the "sunset" question seemed to me more declarative than interrogative, so I'm questioning their sincerity.
     
  4. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I kind of likes that one, an appeal to our emotions rather then trying to be strictly logical. But I know what you mean, it was rather taxing having to write each and every one of them. I'll come back tomorrow to actually respond to one of them.

    (I also liked your answer)
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    1. Bill Nye, Are you influencing the minds of children in a positive way? Yes he is.

    2. Are you scared of a Divine Creator? No I am not.

    3. Is it completely illogical that the earth was created mature? i.e. the trees created with rings... Adam created as an adult... Yes it is.

    4. Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove Evolution? No it does not.

    5. How do you explain a sunset if their is no God? Is this an inquiry about the rotation of the earth or the reflection and refraction of light?

    6. If the Big Bang Theory is true and taught as science along with evolution, why do the laws of thermodynamics debunk said theories? What do you understand as the meaning of the word theory?

    7. WHAT ABOUT NOETICS? What about it?

    8. Where do you derive objective meaning in life? From life itself, living on this planet and with my fellow travelors.

    9. If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism originate? By chance? Google will help with the variety of possibilities of abiogenesis.

    10. I believe in the Big Bang Theory... God said it and BANG it happened! That is nice.

    11. Why do evolutionists/secularists/humanists/non-God believing people reject the idea of their being a creator God but embrace the concept of intelligent design from aliens or other extra-terestrial sources? Where are you gathering this information?

    12. There is no inbetween... the only one found has been Lucy and there are only a few pieces of the hundreds necessary for an "official proof"
    (I had trouble reading her hand writing and understanding the question. Help me with this one) There is a lot of in between.

    13. Does metamorphosis help support evolution? Not really...that is a change of stages of the same animal.

    14. If Evolution is a Theory (like creationism or the Bible) why then is Evolution taught as fact. Again, what is your definition of theory?

    15. Because science by definition is a "theory" -not testable, observable, nor repeatable" why do you object to creationism or intelligent design being taught in school? ""

    16. What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process? Observation. You do realize that white folks are a genetic mutation as darker skinned folks moved north yes?

    17. What purpose do you think you are here for if you do not believe in salvation? To save others thru education.

    18. Why have we found only 1 "Lucy", when we have found more then 1 of everything else? Time.

    19. Can you believe in "the big bang" without "faith"? I believe so.

    20. How can you look at the world and not believe someone created/thought of it? It's Amazing!!! Someone? Yes.

    21. Relating to the big bang theory... Where did the exploding star come from? There is no exploding star.

    22. If we come from monkeys then why are there still monkeys? Back to education...we came from the same ancestors...we are distant cousins, we did not evolve from monkeys... This is fantastic final question, it begs the answer to all of them...they are asked from a position of ignorance regarding science.
     
  6. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    22. If we come from monkeys then why are there still monkeys? Back to education...we came from the same ancestors...we are distant cousins, we did not evolve from monkeys... This is fantastic final question, it begs the answer to all of them...they are asked from a position of ignorance regarding science.

    Bingo! My thought exactly. Creationists find it easy to debunk science because they have made no effort to learn science. This is ignorance by choice pure and simple!
     
  7. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Come on, let's not build walls! If no one have given them a reason to trust science then why should them, we should try and share what we know to bridge the gap, ey?
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    But it ain't that... There is a refusal to accept science in this regard since it counters the bible (in their mind)

    They are teaching their youngsters this who will go onto regurgitate it to others. It is this mindset that creates the radical literal fundamentalists that bomb abortion clinics and fly planes into buildings...
     
  9. Paladin

    Paladin Purchased Bewilderment

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    I think I can empathise with Wil's sentiment here ACOT. When I read the questions I get the distinct feeling that they are not being asked in the spirit of inquiry, rather they seem adversarial, like the person asking is attempting to disprove the science without taking the time to understand it. Every one of these questions could be anwered in its entirety with a fairly short online search, so I question the motivation of the person asking them. As for no one giving anyone a reason to trust science? Does that sound like a reasonable statement? Think about the computer you are using, the medical science that helps people stay alive. To say that that there is no trust in science is like saying there is no trust in critical thinking or gathering data, or empirical evidence. I have no trouble engaging in discussion on any issue between religion and science, but the caveat is that it must be a sincere conversation, and not one that begins with an adversarial attitude.
     
  10. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    You two get a lot out of "How do you explain a sunset if their is no God?". I also see a lot of THEY, because we should all assume that THEY are all the same. Just like Christians are all the same, right? Those assumptions lead down very dangerous road in my opinion. In fact, I'd like to leave that subject now. Best of luck to you.
     
  11. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    "...they are not being asked in the spirit of inquiry, rather they seem adversarial..."

    --> This is the difference between being open-minded vs. being closed-minded. I learned a long time ago that having a religious discussion with a closed-minded person is usually a waste of time.

    This also has to do with acknowledging the other person's point of view. I have found that even open-minded people oftentimes have trouble acknowledging another person's point of view. This always leads to bad feelings between the two people.
     
  12. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    In a book written almost 20 years ago now (The Demon Haunted World), Carl Sagan made a comment that I found profound, and so relevant to the discussion we are having. Wish I could remember it verbatim, but I could not find it quickly.

    Essentially Sagan said "the problem with people is not a lack of intelligence, but rather a lack of the skill of critical thinking".

    With the definition of critical thinking being essentially 'disciplined thinking that is clear, rational, open-minded, and informed by evidence'.
     
  13. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    Since Tea desired civil answers to these questions (which you have not posted yet, Tea!), I am game. And I will attempt to be as civil as I am capable of...

    1. Bill Nye, Are you influencing the minds of children in a positive way? Yes.

    2. Are you scared of a Divine Creator? No. Are you scared of a Divine Creator? Or more to the point, are you scared there is no such being.

    3. Is it completely illogical that the earth was created mature? i.e. the trees created with rings... Adam created as an adult... The question is not whether it is completely illogical, or not. The question is can it be tested for verification. That answer is no. And why would a deity put age rings in trees anyway?????

    4. Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove Evolution? Your question proceeds from a lack of understanding of what the second law of thermodynamics means. Most complex manmade objects cannot spontaneously come together because those objects never had that capability to do so in the first place. But interaction between elements IS what they do naturally. It is what elements do; they interact with each other to create other elements.

    5. How do you explain a sunset if their is no God? Ummm, do you not understand that the Earth rotates on its axis?????

    6. If the Big Bang Theory is true and taught as science along with evolution, why do the laws of thermodynamics debunk said theories? Your question proceeds from a misunderstanding of the definition of the laws of thermodynamics. See my answer to question #4.

    7. WHAT ABOUT NOETICS? Noetics is a pseudo-science made popular by Dan Brown when he included it in one of his novels. Noetics is no more science the creationism is.

    8. Where do you derive objective meaning in life? From education, learning and personal experience.

    9. If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism originate? By chance? Yes. I am mystified why you can accept the concept of a deity that originated from nothing, but cannot accept the beginning of life from nothing!

    10. I believe in the Big Bang Theory... God said it and BANG it happened! This is not a question, it is a statement. And it deserves no more response than the obvious lack of thought put into stating it.

    11. Why do evolutionists/secularists/humanists/non-God believing people reject the idea of their being a creator God but embrace the concept of intelligent design from aliens or other extra-terestrial sources? Ummm, the group of people you ask about are no more likely to embrace intelligent design from aliens than they are from a deity. Where you got this concept from is puzzling.

    12. There is no inbetween... the only one found has been Lucy and there are only a few pieces of the hundreds necessary for an "official proof" The fossil record is more complete for many other species than it is for the break of proto-humans from other ape ancestors. That is true. It is not true that there has been found more than 1 of everything else. Much of what we have found depends on the areas of the world that were conducive to fossil formation. Man's origins out of Africa is not an area that retained fossil remains as effectively. Thus fewer remains have been discovered.

    13. Does metamorphosis help support evolution? No. metamorphosis is an alternation within a specific species, like a caterpillar turning into a moth. This is not related to evolution.

    14. If Evolution is a Theory (like creationism or the Bible) why then is Evolution taught as fact. Your question proceeds from a misunderstanding of the difference between a 'scientific theory' as opposed to a 'theory'. A scientific theory is a rigid question that is then tested for truth/falsehood over and over again, by numerous different individuals. Evolution is NOT a theory. It is a scientific theory that has been proven so many times that evolution can be considered fact. This is in direct opposition to Creationism which is based on no rigorous testing, nor any testing at all, but rather plain acceptance.

    15. Because science by definition is a "theory" -not testable, observable, nor repeatable" why do you object to creationism or intelligent design being taught in school? You also proceed from a misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is. Scientific theory IS tested, questioned, repeated over and over again; and by many different people. When enough similar results are collected, a theory can be considered to be fact. I object to creationism because IT is the one that is not testable nor repeatable.

    16. What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process? Man himself has found ways of gene splicing to alter genetic information. If mortals can do it, nature can do it. It obviously does not require a deity. By the way, genetic information is altered, not increased or decreased.

    17. What purpose do you think you are here for if you do not believe in salvation? This is such a closed minded question that it defies an answer. If you believe the only reason we are here is for salvation, you are, by definition, blind to the millions of other reasons why we might be here, and any examples I might give you would be rejected out right.

    18. Why have we found only 1 "Lucy", when we have found more then 1 of everything else? The fossil record is more complete for many other species than it is for the break of proto-humans from other ape ancestors. That is true. It is not true that there has been found more than 1 of everything else. Much of what we have found depends on the areas of the world that were conducive to fossil formation. Man's origins out of Africa is not an area that retained fossil remains as effectively. Thus fewer remains have been discovered. I.E. same answer as #12.

    19. Can you believe in "the big bang" without "faith"? Of course. The theory of the Big Bang has been analyzed, studied, tested and refined by thousands of individuals separately and coming to the same conclusions. This is how science works. You don't take one person's word for it. Many people study the question, compare notes and come to a common conclusion. Faith has nothing to do with it.

    20. How can you look at the world and not believe someone created/thought of it? It's Amazing!!! How can you look at the world and not believe that it evolved by random chance of nature rolling the dice over billions of years? That everything fits together SO perfectly actually supports the concept of evolution.

    21. Relating to the big bang theory... Where did the exploding star come from? Your question proceeds from a lack of understanding about current scientific thinking concerning the origins of the Universe. First of all, there never was an exploding star. However I think the basis of your question is how did the Universe come into existence from nothing. All we have are theories, some of the latest based on quantum mechanics. The fact that they are theories does not equate them with blind acceptance of a theological creation myth.

    This is THE critical difference between science and creationism. Creationism is based on belief and nothing but belief. Science is based on observation and testing.


    22. If we come from monkeys then why are there still monkeys? Your question proceeds from a lack of understanding about current scientific thinking on this subject. It has been many years since evolutionists discovered that man and apes had a common ancestry, but broke off into different branches of that tree. The concept that men evolved from apes (not monkeys) is several decades out of date.
     
  14. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Wow, I don't understand how you have the stamina to answer all of them...in one go! I'm going to blame the lack of time here, but what you did there was impressive!
     
  15. Paladin

    Paladin Purchased Bewilderment

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    I'm sorry is this a response to my last post? Do you really think that I think this way? No assumptions are being made here about the people who asked the questions, rather the focus is on the questions themselves. By re framing the discussion to reflect criticism you avoid having to make a genuine response. In my experience this is just a defense mechanism employed to avoid discomfort.
     
  16. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    Thanks, Tea. Hopefully there is some quality in those answers? and not just quantity!
     
  17. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I'm doing my best to interpret what you write, and you do your best to write what you feel. The result is obviously 'yes', that is what I think you think.

    Yes, I am avoiding that discomfort, I would much rather discuss other things.

    Well I think so. I did expect people to answer them all in one go, but to answer what they thought they had an answer to. But you felt you had answers to go around! I feel I can elaborate one some of the questions from my own perspective, but for now I feel more frustrated coming to this thread so I'll take my time and write something when it feel right.

    I'm in no rush, creationists will probably be around when I die.
     
  18. Paladin

    Paladin Purchased Bewilderment

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    Fair enough, but I can't shake the feeling this is just projection, especially since you didn't seem to mind clumping all atheists together in a separate thread. For the record, I do not assume all Christians think or act alike. Clearly the discussions between Thomas and Wil for example would show how many people approach their religion from disparate views. In this thread, I am questioning the sincerity of the questions, and you seem loathe to reassure me that indeed these are questions that you feel need to be answered. Otherwise they smack of an ill considered and poorly prepared argument against evolution. Personally, I like to think that reality is much more nuanced than either science or religion can fathom, and further that consciousness may exist separate from neural processes, but that's just something I like to think about.


    Sort of raises the question why the thread was begun in the first place doesn't it?
     
  19. Paladin

    Paladin Purchased Bewilderment

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    Below is a link to the common fallacies used by people who do not come to these discussions in the open, honest spirit of inquiry but have a different goal in mind altogether. I fully believe that religion and science are not at odds, and further that scientific discovery does not challenge the belief in God, it challenges a simplistic understanding of what God might be. There are those who are heavily emotionally invested in their concept of God and how the universe works, and are, quite honestly too intellectually and spiritually lazy to grow in their understanding. If this were not so, there would be no discussion here at all.



    5 Easy Tips for Denying Scientific Consensus | Experts' Corner | Big Think
     
  20. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    And now that you got out of the way, let's move on.
     

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