Ask a Theistic Luciferian

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by LuciaStar, Jul 4, 2014.

  1. LuciaStar

    LuciaStar New Member

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    I'm going to put myself on the spotlight and I hope it's okay if I do this. :) So, um, ask me somethings and I'll try to answer them. Keep in mind whatever I answer doesn't reflect all Luciferians in a whole because we're pretty diverse in our views and beliefs, though we do share common views and beliefs at times.

    So, have at it? Anything can be asked!
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Theistic....who is G!d?
     
  3. LuciaStar

    LuciaStar New Member

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    Hmmm, are you asking who is God to me? If so, well... God, to me, is the creator of Lucifer and the angels but I'm not sure if I really believe he created the world. I don't put much stock on creation myths as being literal truth (or most mythology, at that), and the Bible isn't exempt from that, even if it's declared as The Truth but I also slightly believe he may have had a hand in creation, perhaps by influencing the Big Bang, let's say but I also have a small belief that if that was true, then other deities and entities may have had a hand in the way humanity progressed and evolved, since I have also worked with other deities and entities both in the past and now.

    So, he may be the sole creator of the world but also not in my lingering bit of belief on creation.

    Now if you're asking who is God in the sense of who exactly I worship, well... Lucifer. I believe that Lucifer had enlightened humanity by tempting Adam and Eve into eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I'm not exactly sure what he saw in humanity to enlighten them and essentially enable them to become like gods, but I most definitely believe he did that.

    I don't exactly worship Lucifer in the same way as one would worship God, though. When I say worship, it's a more... Pagan way, I suppose. Presenting offerings, devotion, admiration and adoration but I was also Pagan for eight years so how I go about deity worship comes from that, so sometimes I think revere might present what I do better but worship is a word most are familiar with.

    I hope I caught on to what you were asking in some way?
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    No you did great....how would you think He could create lucifer and angels and not the universe?

    And what who is Lucifer? a being?
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I suppose I would ask why worship a 'fallen angel' as opposed to 'God'?

    Lucifer in the Hebrew Scriptures was a reference to the king of Babylon. The term is helel if I recall, and means 'day star'. The king set himself up as a god, but the point the prophet was making is that he is not a god, any more than Venus (the Day Star) is the Sun.

    In the Patristic tradition, the Fathers identified not the man, but the tendency. Lucifer, as an Archangel, fell through pride, deeming to know better than God. Having fallen, he seeks to drag man down with him, so tempts Adam and Eve in the Garden, but he is, as Christ says, 'the Father of Lies' — his was the first lie: eating the fruit did not made Adam and Eve the equal of God, as he told them it would.

    The Moslem Tradition explains his fall in greater detail. God created man and declared in him the completion of creation. Lucifer refused to accept that, and refused to honour man as God required. In defying God, he excluded himself from a place at God's table.

    There is no reference anywhere in the Abrahamic Traditions that Lucifer is worthy of our praise. Quite the reverse. His fall led to our fall, not our enlightenment.
     
  6. LuciaStar

    LuciaStar New Member

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    Well... I believe the mythology and stories behind them like I do with any mythology and stories behind a god. Believe in this case is more like 'This is how they are seen and conceived in their respective religion and/or pantheon/This is what mythologically makes sense in their respective religion and/or pantheon."

    But the universe is vast and I don't think we seen it all, so how could it be a one man's job and not a group effort in some way? I find that more believable than anything. Also, I've been polytheistic for the last eight years, so that also impacts my view on creation and have ended up viewing God as another god among many and sure, he may be a powerful god, probably more powerful than the other gods if you're looking at a slightly Christian-influenced view, but he's still not powerful enough to me to be the sole creator of the universe and if he is, I'm more inclined to believe he had a little help. Either from events like the Big Bang, as mentioned earlier, or from the angels.

    Yes! I'm theistic, so that means I do believe that Lucifer is an actual entity and since I also sort of subscribe to the idea that he rebelled and fell, I also believe he is a fallen angel but don't believe he is the Satan but probably a Satan. See, ha-Satan is a title which is kind of translates to 'the accuser' or 'the adversary', and it's notably so in the Old Testament was Satan there (as ha-Satan) works for God rather than against him since he challenges man. In the New Testament, however, he starts becoming more malevolent and is said to bring evil and temptation and deceive humanity. I think this sort of speaks of a change in how Satan was viewed within Judaism, as he didn't start out being viewed as terribly malevolent but was in the New Testament.

    However, being that I view Lucifer as someone whom brought enlightenment and was the snake in the garden, I can't deny that he is a Satan himself, a being that challenges man, that is an adversary against them. So, I guess I believe some part of the 'Satan is Lucifer' is true but not in the way it's commonly said. He's A Satan, but not The Satan.

    So to sum that up, I believe Lucifer is a being (and also sort of believe he was created by God) and one of God's angels, but also believe he rebelled against God and fell and also believe he is, in some way, man's challenger but not the sole challenger, nor the sole Satan and that he brought enlightenment, knowledge and even the potential to become like gods to humanity.

    Because it's fun! :p JK, because I feel more of a pull towards the fallen angel rather than God. I was never all that drawn to God to begin with and never felt a huge desire to worship him, but when I decided to learn more about Lucifer and whether he was truly evil or not, I came to admire and love him, and with that came the feeling of being drawn to him and the desire to worship him. Lucifer stood for freedom and enlightenment to me, while God didn't... stand for much to me. He didn't really feel like he offered much freedom or enlightenment, and I didn't believe Sin was a bad thing and didn't believe humanity needed Salvation, so that pulled me further away from God and closer to Lucifer.

    It took years for me to actually worship Lucifer, though but I already was showing devotion and stuff through poetry about him and writing stuff on him (and being deeply passionate in talking about him :rolleyes:), it just took me a while to try to go with the motions and actually do it.

    Helel is the correct term, but Lucifer itself never shown up until after Jerome's Latin Vulgate and somewhere down the road, the term became another name for Satan. However, Lucifer was the name of a minor Roman God whom was the personification of the morning star, and Helel was a minor deity whom was connected to the morning star as well. There's some theories popping around now that the author of Isaiah was using some of the imagery/referencing some ancient Canaanite myths, where there were Attar, another Canaanite deity that tried to occupy the throne of Ba'al and, again, Helel, whom tried to dethrone El.

    Both of which does link to the point the prophet was making: The king was setting himself up as a god, but wasn't a god. Like how Helel and/or Attar were setting themselves up as above their High Gods but weren't above them and the point the prophet was making probably is what started the Lucifer-fell-due-to-pride thing when people start seeing the verse as referencing Satan, but I don't think knowledge of where the original reference may have came from was known by that time.

    That also sort of reinforces the Patristic tradition's views on it being the tendency. Attar and Helel fell from their own pride, trying to set themselves above the high gods, like I said before, and Lucifer's current myth reflects that as well, possibly linking him to Attar and/or Helel, whom I sort of equate him with a bit due the similar stories (more so Attar, but it's for personal reasons and associations).

    Here I would have to disagree with their view. The way I see it, Lucifer didn't lie to Adam and Eve as they did become capable of becoming equal of God. Along with that, they became enlightened, developed knowledge and a sense of right and wrong, all of which they didn't have in the beginning. They were blissfully ignorant in the beginning, but eating the fruit gave them the same knowledge God would have and they begun to know. Know the world and themselves.

    It sure as hell hurt, yeah, but enlightenment and knowing isn't always rainbows and butterflies. It will hurt at times but it's usually for the better, even if it changes you in a bad or good way.


    I've seen other Luciferians interpret this as Lucifer loving God too much to honor man as God required, because I believe God also told the angels before to honor Him, so honoring man went against that commandment that Lucifer was told to follow previously. However, I'm not too well versed in that interpretation.

    No there isn't, but it also doesn't change how a person will look at the story themselves and begin to question if Lucifer is as bad as people say he is, like how I did. It's a manner how someone interprets the story in that case: Is he the one that led to our fall or led to our enlightenment? One person will see it as the first and the other will see it as the second. The person who sees it as the first, that he led to our fall, will interpret Lucifer as a liar and interpret God saying that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit as a spiritual death, while the other who thinks he led to our enlightenment, would see Lucifer as telling the truth and God as the liar, as Adam and Eve didn't die but became spiritually awakened via enlightenment.

    And like I said earlier, enlightenment isn't rainbows and butterflies and can and will hurt.

    Luciferianism's view on Lucifer enlightening mankind is kind of inspired by Gnosticism a bit, in the sense that he's commonly seen as the serpent in the Garden that tempted Adam and Eve into eating the fruit, which gained them gnosis. Luciferians kind of associate enlightenment with Lucifer due to what Lucifer means -- light bringer. Light can sometimes be associated with knowledge, and hence Lucifer becomes associated with knowledge and then associated with bringing gnosis to humanity.

    So all of that does make him worthy of praise, at least in my, and a few other theistic Luciferian's, eyes. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
  7. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Hi LuciaStar!
    How much do you rely on the Jewish or Christian texts. Are there other sources?
     
  8. LuciaStar

    LuciaStar New Member

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    Hello!
    And yes to both. I rely on the texts as much as I would rely on any mythology for any god I happen to approach or feel drawn to: To try to learn a bit about their mythology and gain an understand of the deity. However, that's a lot more easier to do with Greek deities than Lucifer. :p Christianity is monotheistic and the Devil is commonly seen as evil, so I kind of have to look at what I can look at and then move on and look at other mythologies.

    Greek mythology has an impact on me, as Prometheus' myth clicks with me and makes me feel like it's added a piece of the puzzle as to who Lucifer is (which is what I kind of have been trying to do the whole time I was Pagan: Figuring out who Lucifer is, his origins and history) and I guess Roman mythology has a small one, due to the minor Roman God called Lucifer, whom is connected to the morning star/Venus and also made me decide to try to see how far back the morning star aspect for Lucifer can go. Which has kind of led me to the Canaanites and the Mesopotamian mythology in general, so I guess that'll be the next source of influence. ;)
     
  9. Taurean

    Taurean purified

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    I have a question:
    How important is sex to a Luciferian happiness?

    I associate Lucifer with the temples to baphomet and Diana Lucifera, the combination of Pan and Pallas Athena -

    the occult schools of the left path.

    If sex is important, how should it be approached?
     
  10. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Don't feel trolls, please. :)
     
  11. Greyson Black

    Greyson Black New Member

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    I am also a Theistic Luciferian, although my views differ from those mentioned by LuciaStar.

    I recognize Lucifer in both His luminous and His fallen aspect, which most know of as Satan.

    You may also ask me questions, if you wish.
     
  12. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    How do your views differ from hers? In general terms.
     
  13. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    By some interpretations of scripture, Lucifer will return anytime now on the 6th trump. A cause for Luciferians to rejoice I'd imagine. Well, 'til the 7th trump anyway.;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  14. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Well now that is scary, cause the Trump has returned!
     
  15. Greyson Black

    Greyson Black New Member

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    I worship the Morning Star, "Helel" (הֵילֵל) called as Lucifer in the King James version of the Bible. He is now called often as Satan. He was Nachash (נָחָשׁ), the shining one, the wise divine being who tempted Eve in the the Garden of Eden.
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I suppose I would ask why worship a 'fallen angel' as opposed to 'God'?

    Lucifer in the Hebrew Scriptures was a reference to the king of Babylon. The term is helel if I recall, and means 'day star'. The king set himself up as a god, but the point the prophet was making is that he is not a god, any more than Venus (the Day Star) is the Sun.

    In the Patristic tradition, the Fathers identified not the man, but the tendency. Lucifer, as an Archangel, fell through pride, deeming to know better than God. Having fallen, he seeks to drag man down with him, so tempts Adam and Eve in the Garden, but he is, as Christ says, 'the Father of Lies' — his was the first lie: eating the fruit did not made Adam and Eve the equal of God, as he told them it would.

    The Moslem Tradition explains his fall in greater detail. God created man and declared in him the completion of creation. Lucifer refused to accept that, and refused to honour man as God required. In defying God, he excluded himself from a place at God's table.

    There is no reference anywhere in the Abrahamic Traditions that Lucifer is worthy of our praise. Quite the reverse. His fall led to our fall, not our enlightenment.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Copied this above as I would have the same question of you, since it wasn't answered and then deleted when I asked above.



    I'm not trying to be insensitive, so please bear with me. I cannot fathom following the rejector. Why would one choose to follow the entity described in the only source I assume you use (and this might be the difference is that maybe you use other sources) as the entity doomed for hell rather than obey the creator who has promised Heaven for obeying. In that how much of the supporting sources do you use when deciding what is following, Torah, Bible, Quran, Greek Mythology (Hades), Egyptian Mythology, etc?

    just for clarification in the Quran it tells us that Satan (Lucifer) was a Djinn (smokeless fire creation) who was one of Allah's first creations, and was among the angels in honor before he chose to disobey, for which Allah cast him out doomed to Hellfire, to which he pleaded and was granted temporary reprieve until Judgement Day.
     
  17. Greyson Black

    Greyson Black New Member

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    The Lamentation upon the King of Tyrus was a comparison:

    Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


    Just as the scripture below also is a comparison:

    Isa 14:12
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


    In another scripture, Yeshua spoke to the spirit within Peter:

    Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


    Understand, I am keeping things in context here. These are simple Biblical examples of exactly how the scripture uses one thing to explain another thing. For example:

    Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    "Hell" in this passage refers to (γέεννα):

    Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.


    As you can see, scripture uses one thing (The Valley of Hinnom) to refer to another thing (Hellfire). This is constant through scripture. While it is true that Lucifer is not discussed directly beyond the mention of Him as a "shining one" (נָחָשׁ), there are many clues as to His story throughout scripture in the form of comparison.

    As for the source I take Lucifer's story from, it is from the Bible. I find the Quran too corrupt, especially considering how many translations it has, how they differ, how many are accepted and how the records were kept through history (or not kept).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  18. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    you are joking right? especially about the last part? You can't take the Quran because it has too many translations, and records weren't kept so you keep to the KJV of the BIBLE? The Quran is in Arabic. Always has been, its records are both verbal and on paper since the first couple decades after the Prophet (PBUH). The Bible (KJV specifically) has gone through 100 revisions this century. and the Bible as a whole has 1000s of translations based on similar but not exact text that is translated with no records as to which is more authentic. Even scholars use their "Best guess" when choosing "original text".

    As for the rest, you never really said why you choose to follow the entity described in your referenced book as the one NOT TO FOLLOW. I realize there is a Hell, something no Muslim denies. There is also a heaven, which is the exact opposite. Hell is a place of eternal suffering and horror, why would you want to make sure you go there? For you is this more of a "My family is Christian and I hate the religious people" act? Or is it a deep down belief of righteous following?
     
  19. Greyson Black

    Greyson Black New Member

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    Actually, I do not keep only to the KJV, although I fancy it. I generally research things in the original language to the best of my ability. If I do not know something, I consult those who do and learn. As for the Quran, my issues with it are my own. I do not care if you value it or not.

    Before I answer you, why do you follow your religion? Do you love your god? If so, why do you love your god?
     
  20. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    fair enough, just a strange argument to make considering the wealth of evidence to the contrary. And not to be condescending but 90% of people I've met who claim to read the "source" to the best of their ability when speaking about the Bible, they usually just mean they've read people's explanations in a "study" version of the Bible. I'm not saying you aren't 100x more versed than them or I, just stating a reason some will be skeptic of that phrase.

    The rest I'll go Question by Question...
    I follow my religion because the Creator made the religion so that we could all coexist and thrive. The religion specified protects the rights of all men and women and keeps an order that is required for civilization to be maintained without succumbing to the disaster that come after sin. Although the real, underlying reason is because The Creator told us to. which leads to the next question.

    Of course, and you don't need "your" as I (and many other monotheists) believe there is only one, so there is no difference in my god and your god, etc, unless we are discussing mono vs poly thoughts.

    Because without him I was never. Without God there was no creation, there wasn't even an existence. When he created this existence and on down to his creation of me, He did something special. He allowed me to "be". I owe everything to him and he asks for a small payment which in turn makes my "be"ing easier. The small payment, is obedience to his law.

    ________________________

    So as a Theistic Luciferian, is this God I speak of (aka The Creator, YHWH, Elohim, Allah, etc.) the Same God that created Lucifer? Is Lucifer not but a creation who was disobedient, and from which is certain a future eternity in Hell? Is Lucifer even remotely powerful next to the Creator? What can he possibly offer you that the Creator cannot, or for that matter what can he offer you that is a benefit?

    I want to be clear, I'm not trying to knock your beliefs, it is just your entity of "worship" is the entity warned about in 3 revelations of God. And I cannot fathom how one would choose to follow the lesser creation when the greater creator offers so much greater reward.
     

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