Did he die for our sins?

wil

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A thought was posed....

First of all G!d of all eternity spends 33 years on earth....not he, but a physical representation of he.... 33 years a blink of an eye to eternity...

Then he dies for our sins...

Well he was gonna die anyway right? 66 years, 33 years...he was gonna return...

But then he didn't die... death had zero effect on him.....

And then he returned from whence he came....



So where is the sacrifice?


Serious question.
 

Thomas

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Who did He do it for?

Serious answer.
 

wil

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Who did he do what for?

If I think about it, he spoke, he taught, he trained, he lived an example, taught lessons....all that I feel was for our benefit.

But if you are asking about the crucifixion....that was done to him, so the story goes.

The story of the resurrection....also to our benefit....

I am inquiring of the crucifixion....that was done to him....by the powers that be. "he died for our sins"

He died a horrible death...and then came back to life an ascended....

How is going to heaven, back home, leaving the suffering of earth behind...how is that dying for our sins...that is the question.... had he not been resurrected....had that portion of the Trinity been eliminated right then and there...that is sacrifice...

G!d would have given up the material portion of his being, lost his representative on earth, and been a binary...experienced that loss. And Jesus would be no longer in existence....

As it is....what was the sacrifice....Jesus back with the Father, the Father still whole....that is the question.
 

taijasi

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Esoteric record: He died because he was willing to, not because he wanted to, intended to, hoped to, or had to. Three years in the physical body, and another thirty were spent behind the scenes, in the subtle worlds - remaining present to, for and with the Apostles and Faithful Seventy, and another several hundred. In short, the `Movement' and Ministry did not end, as it was never intended to - and certainly not with the unfortunate, unnecessary and sad, untimely circumstances which led to the crucifixion.

The willingness to yield - not simply the physical body, but the entire personality nature, what we call the `I' on every level ... emotional, mental, and what we usually term the Soul, or spiritual. This, and nothing less, is what I believe Christ sought to illustrate for us - as a difficult stage within our own future spiritual development, and maybe not one which we all must undergo exactly as was necessary way back when. But I do think it is what we should at least Ponder, and try to prepare for.

Imagine - just imagine - what those thirty years might have been like, had the Incarnation not been short-circuited by a fool-headed, impatient Humanity.

Maybe this next time around won't be at all the same ...

As one author clarifies: No, Jesus did not die `for' our sins, but he did die because of them.

Just my 2 cents ...
 

A Cup Of Tea

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33 years a blink of an eye to eternity...

I think a lot of what you're saying rests on this, and I don't know if this is true. As I understand it, the point is that he suffered as we do. And I don't know that the 'physical representation' of a divine being experience time any different then we do.

I don't know that this is relevant to the discussion at large, but it's what caught my eye.
 

wil

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I think the biggest thing is he rose.... been a lot of suffering in this world....folks dying of cancer, of war wounds, left under rubble in earthquakes, died from volcanic ash, lived through the nuclear bomb but not the fallout tortured in war....but they didn't come back to life....they simply suffered....

Yup, he suffered, was killed....but he had a different view of the outcome...rising in 3 days...

the promise to us is we'll be in limbo until he comes back....for 2,000 years Paul and the Apostles all of our ancestors, all gone before us....not up in heaven, or down in hell, but asleep in limbo waiting?
 

NiceCupOfTea

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A thought was posed....

First of all G!d of all eternity spends 33 years on earth....not he, but a physical representation of he

Colossians 1:19Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,

.... 33 years a blink of an eye to eternity...

eternity is more like no time, no beginning no end, rather than a very long time.

Then he dies for our sins...
Well he was gonna die anyway right? 66 years, 33 years...he was gonna return...

But then he didn't die... death had zero effect on him.....

And then he returned from whence he came....



So where is the sacrifice?


Serious question.

i thought he died and then rose again ?

Its a good question though Wil
 

Thomas

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Who did he do what for?
Who did He die for.

If I think about it ... for our benefit.
Yup.

But if you are asking about the crucifixion....that was done to him, so the story goes.
Yup. But He suffered if for our benefit, not His.

The story of the resurrection....also to our benefit....
Yup.

I am inquiring of the crucifixion....that was done to him....by the powers that be. "he died for our sins"
Yup.

How is going to heaven, back home, leaving the suffering of earth behind...how is that dying for our sins...that is the question.... had he not been resurrected....had that portion of the Trinity been eliminated right then and there...that is sacrifice...
Whoa, there, podner! A number of questions ...

How is going to heaven, back home,
"And if I shall go, and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will take you to myself; that where I am, you also may be." John 14:3

leaving the suffering of earth behind
"But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." John 15:26

...how is that dying for our sins...that is the question....
Yes it is.

had he not been resurrected....
"And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." 1 Corinthians 15:14.

had that portion of the Trinity been eliminated right then and there...that is sacrifice...
You can 'eliminate' the man, but not the Deity.

The Trinity always was, it wasn't a Binary until Jesus was born in Bethlehem. The Trinity is God, God is Trinity.

Nor was the Second Person of the Trinity 'absent' or 'posted overseas' when Our Lord walked the earth. God was still Trinity. God doesn't have to 'come here', He's always 'here', there is no 'here' and 'there' in God – the image of God sitting at the centre of the universe is viable in some aspects; another has God as the centre without circumference, the 'centre' is everywhere ...

G!d would have given up the material portion of his being, lost his representative on earth, and been a binary...experienced that loss. And Jesus would be no longer in existence....
If you understood the teaching on the Trinity, you'd understand this rests on so many false assumptions.

As it is....what was the sacrifice....Jesus back with the Father, the Father still whole....that is the question.
Oh, it so is the question!
"No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again." John 10:18.

"For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26.

For Him, nothing changed. For us, everything.

It's all about us.
 

Thomas

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.... been a lot of suffering in this world....folks dying of cancer, of war wounds, left under rubble in earthquakes, died from volcanic ash, lived through the nuclear bomb but not the fallout tortured in war....but they didn't come back to life....they simply suffered....
Well maybe if people listened, there would be less?

"I teach suffering, its origin, cessation and path. That's all I teach." the Buddha.

the promise to us is we'll be in limbo until he comes back....for 2,000 years Paul and the Apostles all of our ancestors, all gone before us....not up in heaven, or down in hell, but asleep in limbo waiting?
Well who knows the eschaton?

But we believe no, not all sleep, nor are all in limbo ...
 

A Cup Of Tea

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Yup, he suffered, was killed....but he had a different view of the outcome...rising in 3 days...

...not up in heaven, or down in hell, but asleep in limbo waiting?

Well we don't know what comes next, do we? In general, Christians believe there is an after, no? So they will rise too. But the the days or what not I don't know is relevant. What is the progress of time in death?
 

Gordian Knot

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If I understand what Wil's original question was, in my words I would ask it this way. Where was the sacrifice to JC if he knew he would be resurrected from the get go. He knew his 'death' would have no effect on him.

IF I translated his question accurately, my response would be thus: In Christian tradition, it wasn't his death so much as the manner of his death. He chose to suffer the torture and crucifixion as a man. That was the sacrifice. The pain and agony of a human death.

Knowing that everything would be peachy afterwards doesn't change the ordeal he went through. If I were to tell you that you would get 3rd degree burns over 90% of your body, but don't fret cause in three days you will be good as new - would that alleviate your fear and anxiety over the ordeal? Even if you knew that the ordeal was for the benefit of all humanity?
 

Nick the Pilot

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According to a good psychic I know, Jesus taught for several years, but at the end of his teaching, he was still practically unknown. If he had died at that time, no one would have heard of him today. So, his messy death was arranged to guarantee he would be remembered.
 

donnann

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According to a good psychic I know, Jesus taught for several years, but at the end of his teaching, he was still practically unknown. If he had died at that time, no one would have heard of him today. So, his messy death was arranged to guarantee he would be remembered.
No that is not what his death was about. There is something called chakras which are points in the body that connect to the union of body soul and spirit. Those points were violated by doing the opposite . The nails were placed in those points to stop the union of body soul and spirit. Those pointes are actually union spots for the union of body soul and spirit. It was clearly a satanic act to prevent jesus from being resurrected. He overcame that and did resurrect.
 

wil

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There are seven main chakras from the geneitals to the crown of the head... palms and feet are minor 'air' chakras... the nailing was the common way for crucifixion....did they have a resurrection problem back then?
 

donnann

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There are seven main chakras from the geneitals to the crown of the head... palms and feet are minor 'air' chakras... the nailing was the common way for crucifixion....did they have a resurrection problem back then?
yes they tried to prevent jesus from resurrecting. I think killing him is proof of that.
 

Shibolet

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Well, did Jesus die for our sins or not? No, he did not. Jesus was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism and, according to Matthew 5:17-19, he came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter. Therefore, he could not have died for our sins because, according to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20, no one can die for the sins of another.
 

Thomas

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Well, did Jesus die for our sins or not? No, he did not. Jesus was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism and, according to Matthew 5:17-19, he came to confirm the Law and the Prophets down to the letter. Therefore, he could not have died for our sins because, according to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20, no one can die for the sins of another.
He also forgave sin, offered His own addenda to sacred texts, and did all manner of things that were clear indications, to His audience, that He was claiming His divinity. Only God can forgive sin, and yet Jesus forgives ...
 

Shibolet

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Interesting Shibolet... I've read a number of your posts but have not caught yet your religious affiliation.

Yeah Wil, I am Jewish from Sephardic orientation and I live in Israel. To answer a possible coming question, I read the NT first from sheer curiosity and for the second time with the intent to defend Judaism, the Faith of Jesus from the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology which has caused the conversion of many Jews to Christianity. Many have asked me the reason for my interest in the NT and you already have it before asking for it.
 
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