land of israel in quran

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Tikkun Olam, Aug 24, 2014.

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do u agree that quran isn't against the existence of a jewish state?

  1. Quran is not against the existence of jewish state

    83.3%
  2. quran is against the existence of jewish state

    16.7%
  3. religious torah jews are not infidels

    50.0%
  4. all jews are infidels

    16.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tikkun Olam

    Tikkun Olam Member

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    Hi. I found several paragraphs about land of israel in quran. I think most muslims are anti israel, as far as i can tell.
    I am friends with some pro israel and neutral muslims.
    I am interested in feedback about pro israel statehood in quran.
    Shalom, z.
     
  2. Craz

    Craz Well-Known Member

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    I have met many Muslims are are pro-Israel.
    When I studied Islam most of the pro-Israel Muslims were 'Quaran alone' Muslims, i.e they did not recognise the ahadith as authoritative. These people are similar to non-Rabbinic Jews, who only recognise the Torah (and not not the Rabbinic writings) as their authority.
    Also , I met with many Israeli Muslims(mostly Sunnis) that are pro-Israel.
    These people quote this passage:


    "To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

    "Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

    "We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

    [Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
     
  3. Toshka

    Toshka Member

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    I have NEVER met a Muslim who is Pro Israel. To be Pro Israel that Muslim would have to believe that theft of another house and land is halal. I doubt any Muslim would ever admit to believing that.

    Second here are the correct verses from the Quran you quoted above.

    101

    And We had certainly given Moses nine evident signs, so ask the Children of Israel about when he came to them and Pharaoh said to him, "Indeed I think, O Moses, that you are affected by magic."

    Israel above is Jacob not a land. It is talking about the children of Jacob.

    102

    Moses said, "You have already known that none has sent down these signs except the Lord of the heavens and the earth as evidence, and indeed I think, O Pharaoh, that you are destroyed."

    103

    So he intended to drive them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him all together.

    104

    And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in one gathering."

    Verse 104 from what I can see means "And we said after Pharaoh to the children of Jacob dwell in the land" but does not specify any particular land for they would be scattered as they are now. At the end of the world they will all be gathered and have to explain why they denied Jesus as a prophet


    You also wrote this "I met with many Israeli Muslims(mostly Sunnis) that are pro-Israel"

    That means you are talking about Israeli Arab Muslims who were forced from their homes and land and now live as second class citizens in an occupied land with no defined borders. I think they were probably joking with you when they said they were Pro Israel.:D
     
  4. Toshka

    Toshka Member

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    You would be very lucky to find 5 Pro Israel Muslims I think:D

    Especially today as they are bombing more and more babies in Gaza and even the Western Christians have had enough of their decades of terrorism now.
     
  5. Craz

    Craz Well-Known Member

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    You can argue the religious and translation issues with believers. I am just reporting what I have been told.


    LOL, usual uneducated comment.
    In case you didn't know, many Arabs supported the creation of Israel and even fought in the war of independence.
    I lived in Israel for 6 years and most of the Arabs I knew loved the place, including the ones I was in the army with.
    Try visiting Israel and see how 2nd class they are.

    The Quaran-alone Muslims I met , were in Malaysia, USA and England, many of who originated from Arab countries and Pakistan.
     
  6. Toshka

    Toshka Member

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    Hasbara nonsense :D
     
  7. Tikkun Olam

    Tikkun Olam Member

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    I am on facebook a member of muslim zionists group.
    Also theres website ,,arabsforisrael,,.

    Surah 5:21 talks about Allah giving the holy land after 40 years years in desert.

    Most of the verses dealing with jews and their dwelling land are on blog ''theOriginalTestament.blogspot.com''

    I know that there are different translations and readings. Ok.
    But the simple meaning is, those jews who are loyal to torah , Allah's word, will inherit the land.
    Also, quran teaches that torah is true word of Gd that jews must follow, example 28:43_, & 6:91.

    See the blog. Shalom :) :p
     
  8. Jane-Q

    Jane-Q ...pain...

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    Hi Toshka.

    It sounds like you are claiming that Craz is a stooge for Israeli "propaganda."

    I read a lot of witness reports in my day-job.
    Some are clearly biased, others appear to be a reasonably honest report from a witness's personal experience.
    I could be fooled here, I admit. But Craz's report rings true to my ear. Fairly accurate report of genuine personal experiences.

    The world is complicated, Toshka.
    You would realize this if you talked to a wider circle, and introspected more into yourself . . .
    i.e. you should think about being more self-critical of the "propaganda" you choose to listen to, the propaganda which you apparently take as fact.

    Push come to shove, we are not talking politics here. We are talking religion.
    And because a genuinely religious person knows that he or she is not all-knowing, that person cultivates the ability to listen. And maybe even give the other person's views the benefit of the doubt.
    Why?
    Because God is present in this colloquy.

    And because the world is deeply complicated, Toshka.

    Jane.

     
  9. Toshka

    Toshka Member

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    "In case you didn't know, many Arabs supported the creation of Israel and even fought in the war of independence."


    Yes the Arabs fought in the war of independence all right. Against the Israeli's not with them.



    The War of Independence in 48 is called by Arabs the Nakba. The catastrophe.

    The ARAB armies of Egypt Syria and Jordan all fought the Israelis.

    You live in the USA far from the region, I live in it. It was my uncles and grandfathers who fought and died in the Arab wars fighting the Israelis. That's not propaganda that's real life experiences till this day.

    If you came to the region instead of reading reports and spoke to the Arabs then it would be very rare to find any Arabs who supported the Israeli terrorism. Of course there were some Arab traitors who helped the Israeli Irgun and Stern and Hagganah terrorist organisations who assassinated the British and Arabs but they were the minority. Maybe that's who he means. The ones who were shot as traitors by the Arab armies.

    You mention "You would realize this if you talked to a wider circle"

    I have travelled half way and back around the world since age 5 years. Lived in the West and Middle East and am a dual national. Travelled many times to the USA and EU. I think my circle is quite large and includes many different cultures and languages and religious beliefs. (edit is not allowing me normal size font sorry)


    "Push come to shove, we are not talking politics here. We are talking religion."

    My first post was actually talking about religion where I provided the Quran verses. Post number 3. I was talking about Halal and theft is not halal.

    We are used to Israeli propaganda here. The hasbara we have had it for 70 years now. They even pay recruits to sit on forums to distort content and have armies of students paid to spread their propaganda. Most Westerners don't know about that.

    Here is just one example of the hasbara at work from their own mouths

    There are many more and even the Israeli Ha'aretz often has articles about their paid teams of hasbarists.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LofScCiJT4c

     
  10. Toshka

    Toshka Member

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    What happened to my post in response to Jane Q ?

    Why are my posts not showing when I respond to members questions with facts and sources?

    Where are my ISIS posts?

    The photo of John Mc Cain with the leader of ISIS?? why is that not being shown?

    Honesty and Truth are important in a religious forum
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    repost....
     
  12. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    There's no conspiracy to silence you Toshka, much as you probably would like to believe otherwise. All of us, as new members, had a few posts held for inspection that never made it back to the boards. Our benevolent leader doesn't always have the time to devote to stuff like this as he would like.

    Heck even I had a post or three that never saw the light of day when I started here. And you won't find a more fair and balanced guy than me. (Waits for hysterical laughing to die down).
     
  13. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    We get spammed by a lot of Muslims. They join IO just to post up "proofs" about Mohammed and Islam copied from elsewhere on the internet.

    Usually to the Islam board.

    At other Muslims!


    Simply the anti-spam script automatically moderating posts with links for new members. Now approved.

    And this forum doesn't subscribe to "truth" because every member comes with their own. All that is asked for is respect and civility. :)
     
  14. SherryOfAsia

    SherryOfAsia Member

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    The "State Of Israel" does not exist in the Quran. The Quran often states about "land" but does not name the land. It is established among most muslims that the word Israel is actually the name of Jacob the Messenger. The most common use of the word Israel in the Quran comes from "Bani Israel" which means children of Jacob/Israel.

    - I would not know wheter occupation of Israel is religously allowed or not. I live a good distance from that location and dont know about its political viewpoint either.

    - as far as Jerusalem goes it has a religous importance in the eyes of muslims but i for one can't understand what importance that is.

    - Conquests happen all the time and the land goes to the victor. However the ruling of the land should be provided to the majority not towards a community.

    - I see the jewish state as a state ruled by tyrants because they will not let anyone else rule their land even those that co-exist with them (Palestine). Such an example might have been fine in the Medieval ages but not in the present time when Democracy rules.

    - As for seeing jewels as infidels. That's a very easy questions. All jewels whether those that abide by the Torah or non-religous ones are infidels in the eyes of the Quran. This is because the Quran views the Torah as obsolete. (sorry jews not jewels lol.)

    Imagine the torah to be "Book Of God" version 3.0
    and the Quran being "Book Of God" version 5.0

    version 5 automatically overrides version 3.

    -----my poll anwsers all jews infidels
    quran not against jew state.

    i personally believe all muslims are anti-Israel. But i;ve never left my city so OH WELL LOL :D.
     
  15. Tikkun Olam

    Tikkun Olam Member

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    1. Koran states that the land of israel is given to jews. Just because it has a legitimate government, doesn't mean that islam is against it.
    2. You call israel a 'tyrant' because they 'wouldn't let anyone else rule' ???
    Huh? Does Great Britain or usa or poland or morocco or ANY state let anyone do whatever they want???
    That's anarchy.

    btw, about one and half million arabs live in israel.
    How many jews live in 'palestine'??? Zero.

    3. Are jews or crustians allowed in mecca?
    But muslims and xians have freedom of religion in israel.

    4. 'Infidels' ?
    Koran states plainly that jews are to be guided by their torah, example surah 17:2 'we gave moses the book as guidance to the descendants of israel, do not appoint anyone as trustee besides Me'

    Sura 2:21, one needs only worship Allah nobody else'
    Just because the jews have no tradition to follow muhammad, doesnt make them 'infidels'.

    2:53 'we gave moses a scripture and guidance as a chance to be guided right'
    2:62 'those who believe in koran and tjose who follow jewish scriptures and the xians and sabians (?) any who believes in Allah and and the last days, and work righteousness, shall have their reward, they shall not fear nor grieve'

    2:93 Allah tells jews to hold firmly to their covenant when they sinned with the golden calf.

    6:91, koran calls the torah a guidance for all people, in spite of supposedly, jews 'hiding' or 'changing' it.

    2:211 Allah warns jews not to change their tradition for anything else.

    5:12, 5:44 - jews are to remain faithful to Torah.

    10:92 jews are commanded to dwell in their 'assigned abode'. Does it mean russia or egypt???

    Every single muslim state was won by force, no exception. Half of asia and africa. Yet arabs who keep killing each other, are calling tiny israel 'tyrant' for defending their borders???

    Israel is about the size of new jersey.
     
  16. Tikkun Olam

    Tikkun Olam Member

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    Koran doesn't ''override'' the torah. Muhamad came to validate torah's message to the arabs who at that time were pagans.

    7:137 , the word of Go'd was fulfilled in the children of israel, because they bore their suffering patiently''
     
  17. Tikkun Olam

    Tikkun Olam Member

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    Koran 46:12
    And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy. And this (koran) is a confirming Book in Arabic tongue to warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good."

    It is clear that koran is meant to affirm and validate the torah, not 'replace' it.
     

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