What To Make Of The Old Testament

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Lux, Nov 27, 2014.

  1. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Good point wil, I don't know what to do with that deviation. First I don't know if they have guilt like we define it, something similar or if we simply project our own responds on them. Is it only dogs also, or is it their interactions with humans? Humans have been bred to respond to us, reading our faces and looking where we point.

    I'm convinced that there isn't any choice, as we understand it, on the part of the dog but rather instinct vs. the strength of learnt behaviour.

    Wil, have you ever thought that the dog does that thing with it's face because it can get away with more if it does?
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Very. The view of human nature is fundamentally different. Catholicism regards man as essentially good, but 'wounded' by sin. Protestantism regards man as essentially corrupted by sin.

    The emphasis in Catholicism is mans' co-operation in his salvation (hence faith and works).

    Well the Reformation marked a massive change, and I suppose the second biggest impact was America, where 'ideological Christianity' emerged in the proliferation of denominations.

    Only when the moneys collected were headed for Rome. Luther had no problems when the money was going into the coffers of his bishop.

    But Luther's view of man was really pessimistic and his interpretation of grace and salvation was coloured by that. So he was not as far out as Calvin or Zwingli, but he was not Catholic. We're the optimistic ones!

    Way more.

    When it comes to the animal kingdom, I'm not sure.

    Oh, I quite agree. Augustine calls it capax dei – The capacity for God. But I can't prove that our moral codes come from God. Buddhists have morals. Humanists have morals.

    I agree.

    Both. The difference is a matter of perception. As I think I said before, I don't see 'Judaism' was a done deal from the moment Abram walked away from Chaldea. It was the start of a long journey, but the nature of God and man, behind the literal reading, remains the same, and spot-on.

    I don't see it quite like that.

    Yep.

    Yes, but I happen to think Christ is more than that: The Logos of God.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    We don't. Remember the Bible is not 'history' in the sense we understand it today.

    I agree. But we should be cautious in judging Antiquity by the moral values of today.

    War is always a failing.

    I think we can regard Moses as a good man, but the point is the 'history' of a people in the Bible works along the lines of, when the people flourish, God is happy, when they suffer, it's because of their falling away ...

    I don't buy that entirely, and I doubt many thoughtful Jews or Christians do either, but I do see how a people might see things that way.
     
  4. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Have you never owned a dog??
    Never seen that face of one that tore apart the yard or house....

    they know so well that they did wrong....and the fun they had doing it...
    oh that face...
    Wil

    All true. Except I was making a statement about dogs behavior with other dogs. Not dogs behavior with people. A different story entirely. Dogs and people have developed a symbiotic relationship other the millennia that is very close to unique in the animal kingdom.

    And yes, dogs have owned me my entire life! ;)
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    'I wish I was half the man my dog clearly thinks I am!'

    Can't remember who said it, but it's one of my favourite sayings.
     
  6. greentwiga

    greentwiga New Member

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    I worked as a chemist for many years. I am also a devout protestant who studies the Bible carefully. I see no problem or conflict between the two. What I do have a problem with is the religious who interpret the scriptures without considering science, and then defending their interpretation as if it were the Bible. Mind you, I find the stories of Adam, Noah, the Patriarchs, Moses, etc. extremely accurate, if I let the Bible speak and ignore the traditional interpretation.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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  8. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    I find the stories of Adam, Noah, the Patriarchs, Moses, etc. extremely accurate, if I let the Bible speak and ignore the traditional interpretation. GreenT

    This is both an interesting comment and frustratingly vague. Would you be willing to expound more on what you mean by that statement? What does phrase 'if I let the Bible speak' mean? Nontraditional interpretations of the text? Nondenominational interpretations of the text? Personal interpretations of the text?
     
  9. MysticMansion

    MysticMansion Interfaith Forums

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    The old testament is important because it helps open our intellectual eyes to the understanding of archetypes which then allows us to understand more fully the new testament. The new testament when opened to our understanding by the old then gives depth and meaning to the old testament. This allows someone access to a greater fullness of the truth God has revealed because each confirms the other granting the reader a greater confidence in God's Plan.
     
  10. greentwiga

    greentwiga New Member

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    I'm sorry that I didn't respond. I didn't get notice that there were replies'

    Take the Garden of Eden. Most ignore the clues that it was where fig trees grew. There is only a hundred miles or less, north to south, between the Tigris and Euphrates, where wild figs grew. The Garden had to be there. The waters divided into four rivers, so it was on a mountain. There is only one mountain in the Region, Karacadag. The Bible states that no domestic plants (plants needing cultivation) existed until Adam came along. Therefore, the Bible indicates that wheat (at least) was domesticated at Karacadag. (see mention of bread) Recently, Heun et al proved that einkorn wheat was domesticated at Karacadag.

    Similarly, loot at the flood story. No boat can be made longer than 300 feet long and survive a storm. No wood boat, that is. The Bible, though, describes a reed boat. In fact, GPR (a semitic word, but not Hebrew) means a kind of reed. Other lines of evidence in the Bible also indicate a reed boat. Reed boats can be made 450 feet long just fine. Though the world forgot about ocean going reed boats for thousands of years, the Bible preserves the knowledge.
     
  11. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I'm not going to dispute reed vs wooden for Noah's (PBUH) Ark as I have no evidence to support either way. But If I had the money, I could prove you wrong. I might would have to use modern technology to do it, But I'm almost certain I could make a 300+ ft wooden ship that could survive a storm. especially if all it has to do is float and not be directed. The most difficult part would be securing the brim... but enough notched end logs and a steel cable to hold them together would be awfully strong (could also be rope wrapped, but that's not as fun...) I'm actually not sure where it comes from, but I've heard Islamic traditions that say it was more box shaped, or "like a bird cage" but i'm not exactly sure what shape that is...
     
  12. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Well. There are so many problems with the story, if it is based on any real event, and not but a myth, it must have been a very localized flood.

    Dissecting the story as if it were fact and one runs into a flood (Ha Ha!) of issues. First off, for it to float and NOT be directed, as Joe suggested, is a ship doomed to founder. The only way to survive savage seas is to have propulsion to turn into the waves. Otherwise you capsize very quickly.

    The only way you 'might' survive without a powered vessel is if you had a 'sea anchor', which is essentially like an underwater kite on a very long rope. A sea anchor at least will attempt to keep the ship facing into the wind. Sea anchors are the option of last resort when you have no propulsion.

    Secondly, well here is a typical pic of a Noah's Ark scene. Storm clouds and lovely whitecaps which would be typical of a stormy ocean inside a bay or other mostly enclosed section of ocean.

    [​IMG]

    Unfortunately, that is not the Ark story. It is on a planet of ocean. Atlantic and Pacific storms can be powerful indeed, but they are constrained because the force of wind and waves is broken up by continents.

    There is only one place in the world where the ocean runs unencumbered by land completely around the Earth. An area of ocean just north of Antarctica, aptly named the Screaming 60s.

    I could not quickly find a good pic, so here is a description "The prevailing high-speed, westerly winds which can generate large waves in excess of 15 m (50 ft) and peak wind speeds over 145 km/h (90 mph)."

    That is not a from time to time situation. It is constant. With more powerful waves easily reaching twice that height coming at you from all directions of the compass. Not even modern vessels travel these waters if they do not have to. Even a modern steel vessel would very likely not survive if they were to lose engine power.

    Now take that example and make it world wide. No land anywhere to block wind and waves. And you are looking at hurricane force winds and mountain sized waves. Again I doubt any modern vessel could stay afloat in such a hypothetical situation. Much less one built of wood or reed.

    Of course one can gut all the real world issues with the standard religious copout that God caused it to happen so none of the real world issues are relevant.
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    If one is going to suspend disbelief that we have a worldwide flood of rain for 40 days and 40 nights (that 40 isn't a sign of going around the square in full to completion, that rain isn't higher ideals and thought) and we can get 2 of every or 7 of every animal on (depending on what story you read and animal doesn't mean various attributes worth saving) ....if you can buy all that, then simple technical difficulties with sailing, ship building and dynamics are not an issue...
     
  14. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know. But I had a good time writing it regardless!
     
  15. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    While I can't disagree that the laws of the OT are very influential, I find it somewhat fascinating that you discount the Idea of God, yet adhere to principles from a book says there is undeniably one. If you take a bit to look around, you'll see most here aren't into confrontation, and as long as you keep it civil, most will argue all day, but not ban. I'm not Christian, nor Jew. But the loss of those morals and laws was the reason my Prophet (PBUH) came. To establish a permanent culture of morality and drive out the possibility of the immoral. It seems Man is so fallible, as even with a text that hasn't changed in 1400 years, we still get people thinking they need to add to it and take away for their own gain. Such is the staple of man it seems.
     
  16. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that modern religions have lost their way because they are run by all too faulty humans? It would certainly align with all other types of human endeavor. Governments for example is the same. The question I wonder is what to do about it? Or is there even anything that can be done about it? Is what we have the best that humans can achieve?
     
  17. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I would say there is a difference in our opinion of God, and more importantly the creator of the laws you hold dear. Of course I acknowledge your right to think of God however you do. It is not my place to tell you what is what. I can see that if you stick around, I have many questions for you regarding how you came to some conclusions, yet this is not the place for such questions.

    As for the second half, I think I partly agree. The vast majority of what is displayed in media is certainly not the submission that Mouhammed taught (terrorism and the aggressiveness of many). I would also say you are correct as many people have turned from worrying if they are doing the right things and now worry how far they can go before it becomes wrong. This is actually being addressed in the internal community (Ummah if you will) and things such as Dawah are being reevaluated and encouraged. Certainly I could go on, but this is something for somewhere else entirely.

    I would venture to guess faulty humans has something to do with a lot of problems. It is a recurring theme in the Tanach and Bible, which is one of the reasons there are more than 1 Prophet (PBUTA).
     
  18. Amica

    Amica Member

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    I personally cannot individually judge the Old Testament. What I am told by my religious scripture about the Old Testament is:

    a. It is the Revelation from God Almighty SWT
    b. People have corrupted it to an extent

    Perhaps the verses of laws you cite are the corrupted parts of the OT? I do not know. I know that a lot of it Jewish and Christian people do not practice anymore (like honor killings), yet Muslims who are told that there is some corruption of the OT are still doing it even though some of those laws are not confirmed in the Qur'an. Go figure. So, who am I to judge?

    I think that the 10 commandments are your way to go and things that make sense in accordance to your beliefs and upbringing.
     

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