Charlie Hebdo

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Thomas, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Good to see so many people across Europe turn out to show their solidarity with the journalists at Charlie Hebdo.

    Shame to see attacks against Muslims in France as a result ... two wrongs, but then who can reason with fundamentalism?

    And while I defend the right of the media to free speech, we do need to look at the question of the responsibility that comes with freedom. Here are five examples of irresponsible reporting on the event (from the UK Independent newspaper):

    1: Britain First (far right nationalist movement in the UK)
    In a move Hope Not Hate called "sickeningly vulgar", Britain First used the opportunity to push its merchandise by including a link to its online shop, the “Patriot Store”, in a post about the shootings on its Facebook page.

    2: USA Today
    For some unfathomable reason, USA Today gave hate preacher Anjem Choudhary a platform to discuss the killings. In an op-ed for the paper Choudhary said the 'punishment' for those who insult the Prophet Mohamed is death.

    3: Fox News
    The channel had the same, semi-Pavlovian response it has to all tragedies: it used the massacre as an excuse to call for more guns.

    The channel’s Eric Bolling called for the police to "militarise", adding: "It’s not a police state, it’s a safe state." (Does he know Europe's cops are armed?)

    "There’s been a very serious push from the left saying ‘let’s not over-militarise our cops.’ That [the Paris massacre] should put an end to that discussion. We should over-militarise."

    4: Fox News (again)
    In the wake of the massacre, Fox’s Gretchen Carlson knew who was really at fault: Barack Obama. She criticised the US administration for not called the attack 'terrorism' quickly enough, ignoring the fact that Obama had released a statement calling the killings a 'terrorist attack' on the day of the shooting.

    5: Nigel Farage (UK Independence Party)
    The UKip leader used the attack as an opportunity to oppose immigration. Speaking on radio he blamed a 'fifth column' in our society for the killings, saying:
    "I don’t think anyone can pretend there is a quick fix to this. We have I’m afraid, and mercifully it’s small, but we do have a 'Fifth Column' within our countries. On a cultural level, what price anybody who is a stand-up comic, a cartoonist, a newspaper columnist, who wants to say something critical about Islam at all.'

    +++

    My thoughts are with the family and friends of the deceased.

    This is neither the time nor the issue for promoting one's own agendas.
     
  2. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Hellenist

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    And if there were no Muslims in France, would their be Muslim terrorism there? Farages's mistake is in his opposition to East European immigrants (not noted for their terrorist proclivities) rather than the endless number of Muslims entering the country from such bastions of extremism as Pakistan.
     
  3. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    And yet I know hundreds of Pakistani people who come from all corners of Pakistan that are sincerily good people. There are problem points in Pakistan yes. Under the same Logic these nice people I know shouldn't be here, and neither should any Mexican, Colombian, Nicaraguan, Panamanian, etc. Why make the distinction of where they are from. More murders happen in Panama in a year than people have died from ISIS in the last 3 years (including some of the time it was unorganized) including those in ISIS who have died recently due to the war.
     
  4. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    yes and then more 'yes' for the count
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Worth noting that the terrorists are home grown, in France as in Australia, UK, Denmark ... nothing to do with Pakistan.

    What upsets me is here in the UK the media keep giving airtime to right wing voices, while the Imam of the Grande Mosque in Paris made a noble speech on the matter – a French commentator referred to it as 'Churchillian' ... but it has been ignored by the media. Not available in English.

    So as long as the media 'promotes' the extremists by giving them airtime, and denies the moderate by simply ignoring them, it increases the gap between the reality of Islam and the sham pseudo-religious fantasies of terrorism.

    I am growing increasingly uncomfortable with a media that defends the right to free speech, but is notable on who's speech it reports, and who's speech it ignores.

    And I am somewhat pissed off at a media that calls for the 'moderates' to speak out, and yet ignores them when they do.
     
  6. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    And now you know why all the calls for the Muslim community to stand up and condemn these acts is infuriating. I have seen dozens of Masjids here in the states, and Plenty of Dawah centers condemn the acts of 9/11, Boston Bombing, Boko Haram, ISIS, and just about every other issue that has arisen. But in the Media I caught a 5 second clip on Fox News of all places that showed an Imam saying "We strongly condemn the actions" *clip out mid sentence*. Followed by 20 minutes of "news about how the community as a whole doesn't stand up... Why does 20% of the world need to publicly condemn and apoligize for an action caused by someone they don't know before it can be accepted. While groups like the LRA are briefly mentioned in a 30sec clip for a couple weeks.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    We are being manipulated by capitalism, materialism...news media in the states are not out to report news...but in competition with other stations to sensationalize so you will watch their stations and increase their commercial revenue.
     
  8. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Yep, getting caught up in agendas. As one of our new posters would say, Forget your ego as it is the mind's expression. Realize there is nothing the mind actually knows. Then you will know the truth.

    Of course that particular poster would have stated it 100x in single line sequences in 15 replys. :p

    All joking aside. Capitalism is fine as long as morals hold check on its bounds. It is when it becomes unregulated by Law or Morals that it becomes evil. Materialism = Greed so I don't see how it could be a good thing
     
  9. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Hellenist

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    According to the Pew Research Center, around 1/3 of the inhabitants of Muslim countries support the death penalty for apostasy, this view being the majority one in Pakistan. Very good people!

    It is true that the majority of Muslims do not support terrorism against civilians but, in the words of Abdelrahman al-Rashid, managing director of the TV channel Al-Arabiya, "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims."

    Islam has been attacking non-believers since Muhammad marched against Mecca in 630. Get your heads out of the sand!
     
  10. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Really all terrorists are Muslims? How do you define terrorist? LRA, KKK, Several groups in Israel, India, China, and Mexico all fit the list according to the US recognized terrorist list. Those are Christian organizations. There are also Hindu, Jewish, Animalist, Pagan, and even Buddhist Terror groups. Islam is a religion, it cannot march. Muslims followed Mouhammed (PBUH) to war when they were oppressed. Some Caliphs continued unjust wars, and did unrighteous things. How is that the fault of the religion. and your 1/3 has no grounds. no proof. Never has it been prescribed in Islam that apostates nor unbelievers should die as long as they are peaceful. Some people support it, but that isn't the religion, that is some people. Much like being a white Christian has been used as a reason to kill and hurt blacks and Asians. Seems as though you have a lot of hate built up. Maybe if you discuss your grievances a bit more that you have with Islam, I can ease or curb that hatred. I'd be happy to listen and discuss these issues you perceive in Islam.
     
  11. maggie2

    maggie2 New Member

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    I heard an interesting interview today on CBC (one of our Canadian TV stations). The reporter was interviewing Sikander Hashmi, an Imam from Ottawa. He was quick to say that they (his church) does not condone the killing of innocent people. That would have been great if he had stopped there.

    However, he went on to say that he is first a Canadian and that he and his followers know that they must follow the laws of the country. However, he wants our government to create a new law limiting freedom of speech! So what I take away from that is that he wants to have Canadian laws changed to accommodate his religious beliefs. Doesn't sound much like he really is a true Canadian to me.

    I recognize that it must be hard for others who come to the Western world and have to adapt to Western ways. However, Canada is probably the most multi-cultural country in the world and even here immigrants want us to change to accommodate them. I don't believe that we should be doing this. If people want to immigrate then they need to be prepared to live by the laws and rules of the country they move to.

    And can you just imagine if a Westerner moved to a Muslim country and started asking to have the laws there changed to accommodate us? Don't think that would ever happen! And it shouldn't. I think the old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" should apply to anyone moving to another country.

    I don't believe that people coming here should have to give up their religion or even their language or their traditions and customs. I just think they need to find a way to adapt those things to our laws and society. And I believe they need to learn to speak either English or French (we have two official languages). We had a Portuguese neighbor once and she had been in Canada for over 20 years and the only English words she spoke were thank you and snow! I think that isolates a person and it shouldn't be allowed as those who don't learn the language of their new country can't communicate well with others.

    Anyway, back to the Imam. It's pretty obvious that he's fooling himself thinking he's become a Canadian. I think he needs to accept our ways and laws and customs to truly integrate into our society. And he certainly should not be asking to have our laws changed to accommodate him and his beliefs.
     
  12. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Did he say remove freedom of speech, or say that people should be respectful when talking about others. Here in the states the second commonly gets turned into the first on many conservative news networks.

    I personally think anything you say, you should be willing to accept the consequences. If you say something to piss someone off. Don't get all pissed when someone comes and punches you in the mouth. I've said it before, There is absolutely no reason those guys should have killed anyone over a comic. Yell, boycott, punch them in the face, I would find reasonable. Not killing. Free speech comes with free expression. But as Allah prescribed, do not transgress beyond your rights and Allah dislikes the transgressors. (obviously not as nice as Quran put it, but gets the point). I can only hope the Imam did not suggest actual removal of laws as he is supposed to be bound by any law that does not contradict Allah's Law
     
  13. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    David, many of us have answered what you initially wrote, care for a rebuttal?

    Someone saying it is so doesn't make it so? Or are all statements ever made simultaneously true? Wouldn't it be better to show us actual numbers to make your point, it would give what you say actual weight.

    Reading what we expect out of what we don't know is a dangerous path. And I personally think all citizens should strive for the change they want to see in a country, that's democracy for me.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    posted by a friend...

     
  15. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    About Thomas' quotes about media coverage.

    The liberty of the press is essential to the security of freedom in a state: it ought not, therefore, to be restrained in this commonwealth. John Adams.

    The U.S. at least, cannot speak for elsewhere, no longer has a free press. All major news outlets are bought and owned by Big Corporations who believe a free press is anathema to their interests. And we can see that Adams was so very correct as we see the ever growing erosion of Democracy in this country without that free press to hold the powerful accountable.
     
  16. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Hellenist

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    I shall try to answer a few of the replies that have been made to my posts.

    How do I define terrorism? How about the use of violence against civilians to coerce people?

    Who are terrorists? i neither know nor care whom the US government has declared terrorists. But a list of Islamic ones would include Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, Al-Qaeda, Da'ish, the Taliba, the insurgents in Thailand and the Philippines, etc, etc. How many Christian terrorist groups can you think of? The LRA, certainly, but such groups are very small. The New Testament, for all its faults, does at least denounce violence; groups like the LRA and some in the USA are heavily influenced by the Old Testament, which I find as bad as the Quran.

    Are most Muslims peaceful? Perhaps. But no-one has answered my point that Muhammad was prepared to use violence to convert people and his followers have been doing so ever since. Yes, many Muslims today may interpret "jihad" as "struggle" rather than "war". But as long as the Quran exists, with the possibility of making a contrary interpretation, then there will always be the possibility that some Muslim, somewhere, will make that interpretation. The fact that people who are born in Europe (I do not call them Europeans — a man may be born in a stable, but that wouldn't make him a horse) can adopt that interpretation is proof of the fact that Islam is inherently dangerous.

    Incidentally, although perhaps irrelevantly, I notice that I am the only person in this thread who is honest enough to post his religion and his nationality.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    My religion is Christian...nationality is US...this is known to all who converse here regularly...

    Can you tell us where the Quran or Mohamed promoted violence against innocent civilians?

    Terrorists? Ask the surviving relatives of tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq...they will gladly tell you who has terrorized them in a passive agressive manner for the past 10 years...I believe both of our countries and many Christians were involved in that.
     
  18. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Including or excluding groups based on what you can think of at the moment seems thin. Wouldn't it be better to base your arguments on numbers?

    There are not Europeans because people aren't horses? I consider myself European in a legal sense because I have a European citizenship. I also consider myself European in a cultural sense because I was raised in Europe.

    Why do you think that's relevant? I know where most from here say their from because I've talked to them before. I don't know where you are from though.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Yeah Tea....that is a funny one..

    I can contemplate the regular posters I've interacted with over the years....I pretty much know the country, or here the state they live in and their religious preference...

    (note: I suddenly just like that phrase, religious preference)
     
  20. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Latest look at numbers of PEW Institute poll finds Bill Maher may not be so off the mark as the offended politically correct wish.

    How to Measure What Muslims Really Believe - The Daily Beast

    Personally I find this very disturbing; this large a percentage who supposedly follow a religion of peace. But then, as someone above mentioned, ask the 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed as collateral damage in Bush's War who they think the terrorists are. Oh wait, we can't!
     

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