Charlie Hebdo

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Thomas, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. Lux

    Lux Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    92
    Yes religions can be abused by misguided people, but so can political systems. Any congregation of human beings, whether it's religious or secular, is susceptible to succumbing to the mentality "us vs. them" - those who hold the same beliefs as you vs. those who don't.

    Let’s say we abolish all religions, what I think will happen is that the bigots will find another way to brandish their bigotry, and the terrorists will find another justification to terrorize the world anyway. Self-righteousness is everywhere. Corruption is in any number of things we imperfect humans engage in. Political beliefs are just as easy to pervert to evil ends as well. It's a people problem.
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Hey BigJoeNobody –

    I owe you – and Islam – an apology.

    Don't know where I was when I commented on the latest CH cover.

    Something constructive would have been more apposite, I think. Just piling on the insult is childish. It's a 'ya-boo, sucks to you' response and sadly I think it borders on the occasion when 'toilet humour' claims to be 'satire'.

    Suffice to say the imams retain the high ground.

    A TV host commented this AM that in an increasingly secular society, religion is reviled and often presented in the most pejorative terms. He also acknowledged that the spokespersons for the Traditions rise above it. He was moved by the response of many imams to the outrages in Paris.

    I have done a quick search for any footage of the imams responding ... and can't find anything. If anyone has a link, please let me know.

    I am still, and increasingly, disturbed by the lack of media space given to Islam's response to the Paris attacks. Increasingly it seems to me that the media is indirectly contributing to the problem.
     
  3. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    122
    DA, the problem is the underlying reason these religions become corrupted by men. I think we can all agree that if you have a person able to control others, he is likely to do so for his own benefit. Many have used the religious to do disgraceful acts over the years. It is almost always greed, although lust and glutony (sp?) seem to play a role (although it can be argued both are fueled by greed anyway). In Islam we are warned not to follow in the footsteps of Satan (sry DA, just explaining our view) as those small steps with Satan while minor almost non-sin, can and often do lead to major sins (ie putting a man in charge of your religious endeavors, such as an Imam who does not follow the concensus, has much too often led to people killing innocents).

    Thomas, I appreciate the apology. I think in general we agree on most morality questions, the path is obviously different (at least up to now, maybe one day... :) ) Not sure If I can find footage, or even youtube video, but I'm sure I could come up with a dozen websites that have Sheiks and Imams opposing the killings. I know I've heard one "Sheik" describe the reason many Imams don't want to be on TV is they are worried people will flock to them and listen to their word over that of Allah. (Not as unlikely as it sounds if you ever see some of Zakir Naik's supporters, even though I think overall his attempts are righteous.) But I will try to find them nonetheless.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Quite.

    The point here is that 'secularism' is a belief system which declares 'nothing's sacred' and therefore insists on the right to demonstrate that by offending that which other belief systems hold as sacred.

    (The 'nothing's sacred' declaration is in fact not true, but let's not labour that point.)

    If secularism was truly 'open to the other', truly 'multi-cultural' or 'embracing and celebrating cultural diversity' as is so often claimed, it would say "I don't believe in your icons, but I honour you in respect of them".

    But what most people of any faith sense is "I don't believe in your icons, so I am free to take the piss out of them and you for believing in them."

    But do realise that the abolition of religion is a declared secular agenda. They want it removed from every sphere of public life. In Europe, they want any mention of Christianity removed from its history ...
     
  5. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    122
    Surat Al-Kafirun - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    I think this Surah sums up what you are saying about a true secular free religious outlook.

    I would say here in the US it is just as strong. Atheists/Agnostics seem to have an agenda that is attempting to discredit Christianity and Islam and push them out. It seems Judaism is still as strong or stronger here however. Not sure if that means they are flying under the radar, or they are not frowned upon because of their status in media (movies, comedy), or something else.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,041
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    GAD..... everyone is so incensed about THEIR religion being persecuted in the streets...

    We are so oppressed....

    Hell if your religion is HALF of what you think it is....quit moaning and go out and do good!

    Ignore all detractors and just BE what your prophet/saviour/good book says you should be...

    For G!Ds sake, act like a freakin adult.

    Your religion says help others? Do it. Your religion says turn the other cheek? Do it. Your religion says pray? Do it.

    Where does your religion say whine about what others are saying and writing??

    sheesh
     
  7. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,310
    Likes Received:
    566
    Chill out, wil, they are persecuted by some even though I don't agree to the extent. A person can point that out and still go out and do good.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,041
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    meh....it was a rant...with a point...needs to be published and said...repeatedly

    if one tenth of the energy of whining and complaining whoa is the persecuted me....by Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc... was spent on bettering our world...
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    LOL.

    I love it when the self-righteous complain about how much others complain!
     
  10. DavidMcCann

    DavidMcCann Hellenist

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2014
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    2
    Speaking personally, I don't want to honour people for believing in things which I consider both false and pernicious.

    And to say that France wants to eliminate Christianity is just plain silly. The US constitution is secular — do you think those who drafted it wanted to eliminate religion?

    Frankly, I find Muslims and Christians winging about being "insulted by secularists" to be insulting in itself. What about the Hellenes and Hindus whose temples were desecrated or destroyed by them? The French are not demolishing any churches or mosques, last time I looked.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,041
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    agree with David....this time.
     
  12. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2014
    Messages:
    2,086
    Likes Received:
    380
    Abolition of religion is a declared secular agenda? Come on, Thomas. I cannot believe you wrote that. Who are the seculars who have this supposed agenda? I do not know of any secular entity, community or order, much less such a group with this agenda.
     
  13. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,310
    Likes Received:
    566
    Avskaffa lagen om religionsfrihet. Translation: Abolish the law of religious freedom.
     
  14. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2014
    Messages:
    2,086
    Likes Received:
    380
    So one editor wrote an article. From what little I got out of it, the writer is bemoaning that religious liberty is already covered by basic civil liberties. And that the law sometimes clashes as in the case he spoke of between a parent's rights and those of their children.

    That is proof that there is a worldwide movement of radical secularists out to abolish religion? Despite translating the first several paragraphs of the article, and I still can discern no specific group entity in the article that is out to abolish religion.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    22,041
    Likes Received:
    2,060
    My statement for letting go and working toward a better world apply to humanists as well....

    let it go.
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    122
  17. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    122
    I don't think anyone said all secularists. and the article presents evidence that there is at lease SOME that do.
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Oh believe it. It refers to a debate that kicked off in the wake of 'The Convention on the Future of Europe' that occurred some time ago.
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,741
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    The 'big issue' for me is not to simply blame Islam for radicalisation, but rather look at cultural alienation that provides the breeding ground for radicalisation.

    As Wil and David exemplify, followers of a faith tradition should shut up and presumably count ourselves lucky to be tolerated by a 'pluralist society' which seems to belong exclusively to them.

    There is no place in a modern society for a view that does not match theirs, and they are intolerant of any expression contrary to their opinion.

    Wil is the most long term proliferate poster here, and airs his often frankly ill-informed, profoundly biased and sometimes offensive views about what he believes others believe regularly, and no amount of reasoned discussion will shift him from that position.

    Well, he's won. I am silenced.
     
  20. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,310
    Likes Received:
    566
    Things have polarised a lot here lately, I don't feel like anything I write has gotten anywhere so I think I'm leave this subject.
    I might hang around some other thread, we'll see.
     

Share This Page