Charlie Hebdo

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Thomas, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Sometimes I feel like I've got a wife that keeps bringing up issues from the past...

    Yup it appears nobody wants to know that Imams and Islamic leaders have condemned those that resort to violence and don't follow the Quran...

    And yup Thomas, we've got an issue in this world...where we wake up and then condemn others for not having woke up already...

    To say that society, our western society, and Charlie Hebdo is not partially to blame for the ills the befall us is ludicrous.

    And for atheists and christians and jews and musims to continue the woa is the persecuted me as an excuse for their tawdry and/or horrendous actions is also ludicrous.

    We are like children....'well they did it first'...sticking our fingers in our ears...'nanna nanna nanna I can't hear you'...whenever the conversation turns ways we don't like.

    Time for us to eat the stew we've made... or begin to change the ingredients and start trying to make a better world (not 'our' better world...a better world)
     
  2. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone said all secularists. and the article presents evidence that there is at lease SOME that do. BigJoe.

    No it was declared that there was a secular agenda to do away with religion. Referring to it in that way makes it sound as if it is a big thrust by a large and/or powerful group. I have seen no evidence of any such group.

    Obviously there will always be individuals who will want to rant about ending this or opposing that. My comment is that the occasional malcontent is hardly a movement.

    The Convention of the Future of Europe that Thomas mentioned may have debated what defines religious freedom; what they did or did not decide is rendered irrelevant as the convention was never able to ratify a treaty to put it into effect.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Well there are plenty of antireligionists amongst atheists who would like to see all religions gone...

    Of course in every religion there are plenty which would like to abolish all other religions...

    What percentage of each is there? at the risk of being slapped upside the head with fish I'd say there are more in the religious communities that would prefer atheists and other religionists wake up and realize they are right... most atheists I know just don't seem to care. That being said...I know some that take great joy in ridiculing us that have a belief system.

    Religious nation states, like the ones our American ancestors ran from have existed for millenia and odds are will continue...

    Behold, the six types of atheists – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
     
  4. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Well, I have seen "these people" in Islamic countries. They call themselves "Liberal Muslims", do everything that Islam forbids and look down upon any thing Islamic. They are always elites of the society, have links in assembly/congress, media, academia etc. They talk about progress, liberalism, rights etc, but their main thrust is to clear the society of anything Islamic. Their gods are money and power. They also get huge donations from the west, and try their best to vilify anybody who is associated with Islam. Its looks like they are working independently, but its impossible that they arnt working in collaboration with each other.

    If these people are common in Islamic countries, why wouldnt they be present and working as a group in the western societies? You tell me, how did somebody come up with the brilliant idea that Moses or Jesus are some thing to mock? When did it begin? It must have been a plan, things like this don't "just happen". Why dont people mock Ben-Gurion on media?

    IMHO secularism/atheism is in itself a religion whose priests always seeking new sheep. First Jesus/Moses were made a mock item, so nothing was left sacred. Now the same thing is being done with Muhammad. Apart from that controversy sells. So mocking Muhammad is also a business. Big one, if you see last 15 years of hate-selling against Islam. Before that, Jihadis used to be equivalent of "American founding fathers". Remember Rambo3?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2015
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Farhan...what has happened to Islam in the past 50 years?

    In the 60's Beruit, Kabul...were vacation destinations...

    Muslims and others came from all over to enjoy beaches, night clubs, restaurants.... bikini clad women by day and partying and dancing by night... majority muslim and not a hijab or burka in sight.

    Was it Khomeini, the overthrow of the Shah, the Islamic revolution that changed it all for all?

    http://www.heritage.org/index/country/iran
     
  6. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Dont know about Beriut, Kabul was ruled by communists, who werent liked by Americans and Pakistanis. ISI and CIA started training mujahideen to overthrow communist regime. Then came Soviet invasion and the rest of persistent carnage.

    From what I know, in an effort to prevent muslim from going socialist side, billions of dollars (and petro-rials) were spent on mullahs and mujahideen, and now it has gone out of control everywhere. Ironically different varients of mujahideen are still being used as western proxies, against unwanted regimes. Libya and Syria are example.

    The problem now are nuts on all sides, some are religious nuts, some are religion-phobic nuts, some are capitalist nuts, some are imperialist nuts, some have gone nuts for oil. Nuts are the biggest global issue right now :D, bigger than global warming.
     
  7. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Farhan, the rich have always considered themselves above the laws, religious or secular, that every one else is supposed to obey. More so right now than at any time in the last 100 years. I do not think they are out to destroy any religion though. They simply pay lip service and go on their merry way doing what they want to do.

    The atheists is a religion story though - that just has to go away. Atheists are not a religious group. It is absurd to even suggest it (although plenty of people do). Atheism is a religion about as much as Creationism is a science!

    Wil, both Christianity and Islam have had an overall trend of hardening of the arteries over the past half century. America was a far more liberal country 50 years ago. The extremists were the nut cases on the edges of society then. Now they run the society!
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Afghanistan: History

    I'm speaking of before Russia moved in to take over... yeah after we armed the mujadeen to fight the invaders...and then when Russia collapsed we dropped aide...and the void was filled by the taliban...
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    This was the turning point for blowing up statues and destroying art work...anything with a human body (much less the prophet) was destroyed...

    But back for centuries....muslims painted pictures with people in them...including Mohammed....

    It is not the Quran that caused the strife, but hadiths within that suddenly decided all pictures and statues of humans were idolatry?
     
  10. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Before US-USSR conflict, muslims were all newly freed from their european colonialists and were pretty happy mimicking their masters. Before European colonization, the culture was different. More tolerant and more Islamic. Post colonization it became less Islamic, and during cold war it became less tolerant.

    Muhammad's pictures are something that were never allowed in Islamic world, due to many reasons, biggest one of them being the risk of idolatry. The pictures that you see now a days were made by newly converted turks who back then weren't at the center of Islamic civilization. They are not a norm.

    Hadith BTW doesnt decide all pictures and statues of humans are idolatry. Its an interpretation of those hadith. There are other interpretations too
     
  11. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    you are kind of right. But not completely. If a few muslim parlimant members in an Islamic country say that alcohol should be made legal, thats deliberate destruction of religious values, not just going their merry way.

    Regarding Atheism, it depends on you definition of religion. For me, the very basic definition of religion is a mythos, from which some rituals arise. If mythos is proven right, then it becomes science. Atheism fills perfectly in my definition of religion, unless someone proves that God doesnt exist.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    seems both liberal Muslims and fanatic terrorists that claim to be Muslim like alcohol...strange dichotomy...

    Quran-Islam.org - True Islam
     
  13. paul

    paul recovering sinner

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    'Insulting and provocative': how the world reacted to Charlie Hebdo's Prophet Mohammed cover - Telegraph

    Charlie Hebdo founder says slain editor 'dragged' team to their deaths - Telegraph

    I can't help feel and see all around me a growing hatred for Muslim's, and even immigrants.
    I think these cartoons may have been produced out of hatred, were provocative and was always going to lead to nothing else but trouble and fuel more hate.
    If we look to the golden rule thread, this offended our Muslim siblings.
    If it was race that was insulted it would be a crime, and in some ways it is linked to a race, so is it racist against the Muslim race?

    I think it will certainly add fuel to already growing hatred in our country and fuel a lot more attacks to come from both sides. I think will fuel more hatred and attacks on Muslim's and more hatred and attacks from extremist muslims.
    I think also will fuel hatred and maybe attacks between thoughs of Muslim race, thoughs of Arab origin, Pakistani's and maybe more.
    I think we have to have to learn to heal and live at peace with one another.
    I don't give a shit about freedom of speach, I care more about loving one another and overcoming this conflict
    .
     
  14. paul

    paul recovering sinner

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    'Insulting and provocative': how the world reacted to Charlie Hebdo's Prophet Mohammed cover - Telegraph

    Charlie Hebdo founder says slain editor 'dragged' team to their deaths - Telegraph

    I can't help feel and see all around me a growing hatred for Muslim's, and even immigrants.
    I think these cartoons may have been produced out of hatred, were provocative and was always going to lead to nothing else but trouble and fuel more hate.
    If we look to the golden rule thread, this offended our Muslim siblings.
    If it was race that was insulted it would be quite crime, and in some ways it is linked to a race, so is it racist against the Muslim race?

    I think it will certainly add fuel to already growing hatred in our country and fuel a lot more attacks to come from both sides. I think will fuel more hatred and attacks on Muslim's and more hatred and attacks from extremist muslims.
    I think also will fuel hatred and maybe attacks between thoughs of Muslim race, thoughs of Arab origin, Pakistani's and maybe more.
    I think we have to have to learn to heal and live at peace with one another
    .
     
  15. paul

    paul recovering sinner

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    I do care about freedom of speach, but not of this type, I wouldn't fight for it in anyway, I care about freedom to do good, not freedom to do evils.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Muslims appear to the latest in what they want us to fear.... added to the list of terrorists, blacks, Jews, Catholics, Illuminati, Mexicans, illegals, the economy, democrats, republicans, sars, ebola, swine flu, global warming, objections to global warming, Armageddon, Hell.... the list goes on and on of the things and people we should fear...

    Sky ain't fell..... yet chicken little is still winning.
     
  17. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    We will always see 100 to 1 idiots with bombs strapped to them yelling Allah Akbar to Imams and moderate Muslims preaching peace...

    Peace does not get viewers.... Shock and Awe and dropping bombs on people of color does.... just look at the peaks of CNN ratings....always during tragedy...people flock to the tv to catch all....
     
  19. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Farid you aren't really for freedom of speech, if the only freedom of speech you approve of is the kind you would allow. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
     
  20. paul

    paul recovering sinner

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    I am for freedom if speach, and think it's right for people to be allowed to question and criticize, but I'm not a supporter on actions based on hatred, and just to insult and cause trouble.
    You can never have complete freedom, in a civilized society, you have to have boundaries and laws.
    The things tthat are unlawful to say, based on race and hate, and enticing violence and criminal activity.
    I do think these cartoons provoke hatred of a people of a certain race and culture.
     

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