Daniel 12

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by donnann, Jan 29, 2015.

  1. donnann

    donnann Well-Known Member

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    12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
    What is your interpretation of this prophecy. This is prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Well literally it says that all those that have been told at funerals...."She's in a better place, she is with her father and mother and sister in Heaven, and the pain of this life is gone" Were fed a bunch of poppycock. They are (according to this) without the pain of earth, lying in their graves.

    So Michael better get out his spreadsheet (I can't imagine G!d is still writing names down in a book) for he'll have 108 billion people to process (hopefully G!d, Jesus, the Holy Ghost and angels have got the gates ready and heaven cleaned, there is gonna be a partay!) If he can handle one soul every second it will take 3500 years to get through them all.... hell we've waited 2000 years, what is another 3500 year dustnap?


    Metaphysically....

    At that time Michael (Like G!D), the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book (the story of your life...we are not punished for our sins but by them)—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame (realization that they could have done more) and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens (entering Christ Consciousness, Christ Mind), and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars (understand truth) for ever and ever.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Whilst Millenarianism was popular for a few centuries in the Early Church, it fell out of favour and has been condemned by most mainline traditions; Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican. Today there's an imbalance in the US because such cults thrive there after being shunned in Europe, such as 'Shakers' – originally a derogatory term for 'Shaking Quakers' who were given to ecstatic excesses during Quaker services – and because of a disposition in the US to millenarianism as such; Jehovah's Witnesses, Millerism, Mormonism, right through to Branch Davidians. (I have no idea why – any sociologists on board?)

    Apocalyptic literature is included in the Bible for a specific reason, and that's not for the prediction of future events. In the NT, Our Lord Himself rules out man's quest to foretell the future, as basically trying to second-guess what God will do next, and Peter, who does it a lot, God bless 'im, comes in for severe rebuke when Our Lord said 'Get thee behind me, Satan... ' (Mark 8:33).

    The reason, primarily, is to encourage the audience (Jews in Dan., Christians in Apoc.) to remain faithful in the face of the allure of the world and the trials of persecution.

    In both cases it is history presented as a vision of the future.

    The 'four beasts' of Daniel were the four empires that enslaved the Jews for over 500 years. The Assyrians in the 8th century BC, the Babylonians in the 7th BC, the Persians in the 6th, the Greeks under Alexander in the 4th.

    Under the Greeks the Jews enjoyed a period of religious tolerance, but then Antiochus IV Epiphanes tried to hellenize the Jews of Palestine, forcing them to abandon their faith and practice the common pagan worship. It was this that led to the revolt of the Jews as told in Maccabees.

    This conflict is the theme of Daniel, but told from God's viewpoint, who foreseen and tolerated by Him, thus showing the superiority of the God of Israel over petty pagan kingdoms and that God is the master of history who 'deposes kings and sets up kings' (2:21) until He establishes His universal kingdom on earth.

    From textual evidence Daniel was written in 165BC. Theologically it's interesting, not only as an example of the apocalyptic genre, but for it's highly developed angelology, its teaching on the resurrection of the dead, and its messianism which all give an idea of Jewish speculation in the centuries immediately before the birth of Christ.

    Michael was seen as the 'patron angel' of Israel. The judgement of the resurrection, some to glory and some to shame, are those who remain true to Israel and those who do not – such as those who did not return after the Babylonian exile.
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Wonderful as usual Thomas!!

    Couple of questions.... so according to your last paragraph this applies only to the Jews? Or those that remain true to Israel (hence the US politicians constantly stating their allegiance and support?)

    Second, those Shaking Quakers...the founder was supposedly Jesus returning...a former Quaker who left and took a few with her, and tried to convert more... but they weren't Quakers.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    LOL! If you mean does Daniel mean the Jews that remain true to their vocation, and Americans and others who support a pro-Israel foreign policy ... I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you? :D Nice try, though!
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I figured our politicians are trying to buy their way in...

    My basic question is... you don't feel it applies to Christians, you know, the ones that follow that Jew. Does believing in the Jew Jesus as Son of G!d fit the bill for this scripture's requirement?

    (while I realize you'll give a response as a Catholic Christian, it would be interesting to see a response from a Judaism perspective as well. (of course we know what Shib would say))
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Well I don't see any contradiction between the Old Testament and the New ... but I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'it'?
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    "it"
    Are Christians remaining true to Israel? Shame or Glory? (or new rules?)
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Not a very helpful response ... :(

    Well not so much 'new rules' as a 'new' commandment as outlined by Christ – Love God and love thy neighbour (cf John 13:34). I say 'new' because it is the same commandment, the scope of which was misunderstood by Israel, as spoken by the scribe of the 'school of John' (the author of the Johannine Epistles): "Dearly beloved, I write not a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard. Again a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true both in him and in you; because the darkness is passed, and the true light now shineth" (1 John 1 John 2:7-8).

    Israel is to be honoured in the recognition that their God was not (as perhaps their first founders believed) a more powerful God than the gods of their neighbours, but the One True God, whereas those of their neighbours were not 'Gods' at all, thus we have the essence of Hebrew monotheism, but contained within in the 'form' of Israel that remained true to the circumcision of the flesh rather than of the heart (Jeremiah 9:26 and Romans 2:29) – that is a tribe, or the twelve tribes, and not every nation on earth.

    Christ then 'opened up' the Covenant to the whole world, and rebuked the Jews for not doing so from the beginning. I think this extract from Mark says volumes, so please allow a lengthy citation (Mark 7:1-10):

    "And there assembled together unto him the Pharisees and some of the scribes, coming from Jerusalem. And when they had seen some of his disciples eat bread with common, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews eat not without often washing their hands, holding the tradition of the ancients:"
    If 'all the Jews' wash their hands, then the 'common' mark refers to might well mean the Gentiles, or at least those Gentiles who had embraced Jewish religious ideas.

    "And when they come from the market, unless they be washed, they eat not: and many other things there are that have been delivered to them to observe, the washings of cups and of pots, and of brazen vessels, and of beds."
    Keep that description in mind ...

    "And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands? But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men. For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these. And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition. For Moses said: Honour thy father and thy mother; and He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die."

    This I could suggest is Christ chastising the Jews for 'confining' the Covenant within their own cultural traditions, that is within their tribal heritage. If we wanted to go further, we could say honouring thy father and thy mother means Adam and Eve and their descendants, the human race.

    So I don't see 'new rules' so much as the 'old rules' expressed universally, as applying to all. Christ asserts the pure principle – indeed He is that Principle (Logos) incarnate, the Logos is Love – love God (the vertical axis) and love thy neighbour (the horizontal). A love that's all-inclusive because there is but One God, who is God and Father of all.

    In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, it is Israel who is the older brother, who remained close to his Father's side from the beginning of time. We are the younger brother, the prodigal – whom He has brought home.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Not helpful? I provided the quote of yours that I referred to as "it"...and you responded...

    So your response is... if I may boil it down, Christianity is a replacement theology, or an improvement upon Judaism that meets and applies to Daniel 12, and all good Christians for the past 2000 years are in the book?

    How do you feel this applies to Jews then?

    How about Muslims the replacement theology for Christianity

    Or Bahai, the next prophets followers?

    Or Rastas...

    While we are in this conjecture on an interfaith site....who goes to hell and who goes to this heaven?
     
  11. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    haha, you guys, you are like oil and water, thou shall never mix!
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    tis funny eh....
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I think I missed a context here ... backtracking am I right in assuming 'it' refers to the judgement as spoken of by Daniel being applied to Christians as well as Jews? I didn't get that the first time.

    I also thought we were getting on OK, which was why I spent the time responding. Did my 'LOL' sound facetious? It wasn't meant that way, I thought Wil was cracking a joke, which I thought quite amusing – if I've read that wrong, Wil, mea culpa. I honestly thought we were covering ground ... :eek:
     
  14. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Nono, you guys are fine! in #8 the first quote was your question and the second quote was the answer. That was the 'it' he was asking about...so you kind of answered it already.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    No we are/were good.

    I did intend the "it" quote of yours to be the response to the question...and you answered the question....

    I am often misunderstood...the things in my mind don't always come out of my fingers on the keyboard correctly or as completely as I thought they should...

    We are alright.... the funny part to me is that we both miss what the other is saying so often...
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    but I am still wondering about the follow up....

    the kids get excited when we debate, have misunderstandings...they think we are fighting ...
     
  17. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Hey! I'm big...for my size. Now just don't step on me.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Phew! :D

    Not alone in that. 'Posts' are hardly the best means of dialoguing complex questions. The spoken word, it was said somewhere, is about 10% of a dialogue, the rest is body language. Without bodies, 90% chance of misunderstanding.

    And mine so often gets inspired and runs on to the next point without sufficiently clearing the ground behind me.

    Yup.
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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