A New Paradigm

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
23,154
Reaction score
2,656
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
Devils' Advocate
It does raise one question for me though. Is prayer then a pointless exercise - IF the reason for the prayer is to have something happen in one's life? Can praying to God bring about an event one desires to have happen? Or does not want to happen?

Broad question. I'd have to answer that some people say yes, some no. I'd answer yes, but the jury is still out on that one ...
Devils' Advocate
Example: One is sitting in an airplane at 30,000 feet when you hear a very loud bang! And the plane starts losing altitude. Does praying "Please Dear Lord do not let this plane crash" have any value whatsoever?
I'd say yes, but not in preventing a crash.

I'd say yes, but not in preventing a crash.
Great Answer!

Actually, DA, I think the answer to your question about prayer is contained in the last paragraph of the original 'New Paradigm' thesis.
and that is below...
I think He is saying I am with you. I am for to you. You can talk to Me, and be with Me. I can walk with you if you allow, but I am not some fairy godmother or fetish object sprinkling good fortune in your path. Faith in Me will not determine your good health or prosperity. I do not increase or decrease your material happiness in relation to your faith. God is not a carrot and stick relationship. Nor an insurance policy. Nor Pascal's wager.

Discuss.

This is wonderful. (because I agree of course) but to expound (which might make others not agree)

Prayer doesn't change things.... it changes our perception of things.

Airline going down, I can panic, I can scream, or I can calm myself and prepare for the inevitable.

What happens .... is what happened... our response is our choice. Kids in the same classroom, some say the teacher is awful, some say the teacher is great.... it is the same teacher in the same classroom, the difference is perspective... But that teacher has it out for me, and she likes you...the difference is perspective.

We can't change anyone else, we can only change ourcellves. If we can't change what is...we always can change our perception of it.

You know how your most embarrassing moments, ones you hope nobody saw, or if they did see, you are mortified and don't want them to tell others....become your favorite self deprecating party stories? What changed? Only perspective. Time helped...distance from the situation, hearing others with similar issues.... I've learned if I am going to laugh about it later, may as well laugh about it now. Why wait for time to change perspective...why allow those negative neurotoxins get created in your brain from anger or fear...convert it to laughter and produce beneficial chemicals...
 

Thomas

Administrator
Admin
Messages
12,582
Reaction score
2,747
Points
108
Note to all:

I have begun another thread re reincarnation, with a revised and expanded text taken from the above. Sorry DA, got carried away, so read the answer to prayer, but skip the rest.
 

Devils' Advocate

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,086
Reaction score
382
Points
83
Location
In this so called Reality. Well, most of the time.
Me:
Does praying "Please Dear Lord do not let this plane crash" have any value whatsoever?
Thomas:
I'd say yes, but not in preventing a crash.

Okay now this makes no sense at all. lol. I asked does prayer have any value in preventing the crash. You said yes. But not in preventing the crash! Non sequitor. This does not compute.
 

wil

UNeyeR1
Moderator
Messages
23,154
Reaction score
2,656
Points
108
Location
a figment of your imagination
Prayer doesn't change things.... it changes our perception of things. Wil

This is a wonderful statement, too! (And what do you know, I totally agree. Strange that, huh).

It is not, however, how I perceive the majority of Christians perceive prayer. Quite the opposite.

Actually this is a famous prayer....

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Now take the word G!d out of it... All that is asked to be changed is ourcellves...

Beseeching begging prayer of a plane going down may sound like this, "Oh G!d, please save me and prevent the plane from going down and killing us all" Yes it is a typical prayer, and in this instance, odds are you'll hear more than one devout atheist saying something like that....funny how G!d and prayer are grasped at in desperate situations.

But if there is a G!d that hears prayers...that same thing may sound like this to Him... "Oh all knowing all perfect being creator of the world and everything I see... I know you are in control of my life and affairs, but I've noticed this issue in your plan (my plane going down, cancer, divorce, football game outcome) and I've been made aware of your mistake and am relaying it to you so you can fix it. Fix this for me, dance to my drummer and I will believe."

Then there is this prayer/song/affirmation...
Our thoughts are prayers, and we are always praying.
Our thoughts are prayers, take charge of what you're saying.
Seek a higher consciousness, a place of peacefulness
And know that G!d is always there, as every thought becomes a prayer.
 

Geoffrey

Established Member
Messages
37
Reaction score
27
Points
18
I'm saying G!d is not actively doing things...G!d doesn't 'do'.

G!d is.

G!d to me is again, principle. If I hit my head against a brick wall...it will hurt or break. The brick wall didn't 'do' that. The brick wall just is.
I guess this counts as my opinion (from Appendix poem XXd on my blog)

SPIRIT DOES NOT WILL

In willing, one desires, and
In desiring, expresses preference.

In preferring, one compares, and
In comparing, makes distinctions.

Distinguishing creates an “other,” and
Where there is “other,”
There you will find Self,
There you will find ego.

Spirit is as much man’s birthright as flesh.
As spirit is spirit, and flesh is flesh,
Spirit is not of the flesh.

Not of the flesh,
Spirit is without Self, without ego;
Without ego, spirit is without will.

Without ego, without Self, without "other,"
There is nothing that spirit compares,
There is nothing that spirit prefers;
There is nothing that spirit desires,
There is nothing that spirit wills.

As Wil says, God does not "do," he simply "Is"

Again, from my blog (Chapter I. My Nature)

That you might know me
And with others share,
You once asked of me a name.

Nameless, I could but describe my nature, and
Through the limits of language and culture,
I was heard to say:

I AM WHO I AM.
I AM WHO IS.
I AM.
I AM BEING.
I AM ALL THAT IS.
 

Geoffrey

Established Member
Messages
37
Reaction score
27
Points
18
I don't know. I haven't seen it. He does say G!d doesn't love, G!d is love, G!d doesn't judge, you know, the we are not punished for our sins but by them..

Well put, Wil.

With regard to sin, suffering, righteousness, and reward, I offer (poem XXg on my blog; sorry, it's kind of long):

SIN IS NO CRIME, RIGHTEOUSNESS NO VIRTUE

Present in every man and
In every man the same,
Spirit is as much man’s birthright as flesh.

Their birthright being to both flesh and to spirit,
All men are justified at birth,
Born into the justice – the truth – that
The life of man is simply thus –
Lived on the balance between flesh and spirit.

From the day of his birth,
Man grows to the flesh –
To the body, to the heart, to the mind, and
To the Self arising therefrom.

Grown to flesh, grown to Self,
Man’s needs become desires –
Desires of the body,
Desires of the heart,
Desires of the mind, and
Of the Self arising therefrom.

Non-believers, estranged from spirit
By the dispositions of their lives,
Hear spirit’s voice but faintly, and
Mistaking its source as arising from the flesh,

Respond only to the flesh –
Respond only to the desires of the body,
Respond only to the desires of the heart,
Respond only to the desires of the mind, and
Of the Self arising therefrom.

Responding only to the flesh, non-believers
Are estranged to spirit, and
It is this estrangement that some call sin.

Non-believers living lives of sin are
Committing no crime, for

The truth is that
The life of man is simply thus –
Of both flesh and of spirit, and
Lived there on the balance.

Living lives estranged to spirit
Living lives of sin,
Non-believers suffer, yet

As the life of man is simply thus –
Of both flesh and of spirit, and
Lived there on the balance,

Sin is no crime, and
Neither is suffering punishment.

The life of man is simply thus –
Of both flesh and of spirit, and
Lived there on the balance.


Present in every man and
In every man the same,
Spirit is as much man’s birthright as flesh.

Their birthright both to flesh and to spirit,
All men are justified at birth,
Born into the justice – the truth – that
The life of man is simply thus –
Lived on the balance between flesh and spirit.

From the day of his birth,
Man grows to the flesh –
To body, to heart, to mind, and
To the Self arising therefrom.

Grown to flesh, grown to Self,
Man’s needs become desires –
Desires of the body, of the heart, of the mind, and
Of the Self arising therefrom, yet

Amidst his desires, man fully human
Hears spirit’s whisperings and
Longs for a happiness
Beyond the flesh –
He longs for spirit, for union.

Hearing spirit’s voice,
Believers turn from the flesh and
Pursue this, man’s greatest happiness –
Nearness to spirit with
The hope of final union.

Growing to spirit,
Believers live lives in
Accord with justice, with the truth
That the life of man is simply thus –
Lived on the balance between flesh and spirit – and
That man’s freedom from suffering and
His greatest happiness, lies in
Growing closer to spirit.

Meditating on the writings of the prophets and
Living lives obedient to the teaching of their elders,
Devotees grow closer to spirit, and this pursuit,
This growth to man’s greatest happiness,
Is called by some, righteousness, yet

Just as sin is no crime, nor suffering punishment,
Righteousness is no virtue
Deserving of reward, but
Is – in and of itself – all happiness.

As man’s birthright is both to flesh and to spirit,
All men are justified at birth;

All men are born into the justice – the truth – that
The life of man is simply thus – lived there
On the balance between flesh and spirit,
On the balance between sin and righteousness,
On the balance between suffering and happiness
 
Top