Gnosis/Gnosticism

[lunamoth]

I did not see any other threads on Gnosticism/Gnosis, but if there is one somewhere moderators please move this to a better spot.

I've read Elaine Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels and Beyond Belief but really nothing else about Gnosticism, and I've seen several references in various threads here to Gnosis. Apparently Gnosticism is still alive and kicking in spite of the Church's best efforts to eradicate it so part of my question is 'what is the form of Gnosticism today?'. Are there societies, common worship, rituals, etc.?

From the two books above I gather that part of the 'gnosis' of the early Gnostic Christians was that the creator God was not the Supreme Being, and also that each individual gnostic initiate essentially proved him/herself by their ability to produce new divine insight/revelation/interpretation. The path to the point of gnosis required skilled guidance, and part of the 'problem' as percieved by the orthodox church was that this would lead to elitism and disunity--it was not something accessible to all. And especially it would undermine the authority of the bishops.

So the second part of my question is about Gnosis/Understanding/Knowing, as opposed to believing or having faith. It seems to me that unless one has had an extraordinary metaphysical experience in which Knowledge comes crashing in, invited or not, Gnosis does not seem like something attainable by everyone. And if Gnosis can be achieved by something other than an extraordinary experience, such as by training or personal investigation/reason, how do you *know* you have not been deluded by your ego self? And, from the perspective of Gnostic Christians, if one "Knows" does one no longer need faith? And if one no longer needs faith, and yet still accepts that there is God/Ground of Being, is there no longer free will or is conscience (or personal knowing) the only source of morality, rather than exterior morailty from Scripture or civil law? And if this is the case, how is it different than humanism?

Quite likely many of my questions are naive but hopefully they are not offensive. Perhaps many of my questions are based on wrong assumptions. Are there any Gnostics out there to educate me?

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Lunamoth

"Gnosis does not seem like something attainable by everyone"

Gnosis is attainable by everyone because everyone as the ability to look within and achieve self mastery. Know thyself and you will know the universe, the only way we truly know the self is by going within, some might call this soul searching, self-knowledge or self realisation.

The wonderful Gospel of Thomas is considered to be a Gnostic text and out of all of the gospels it mentions the word happy/happiness the most. So the gospel gives great insight on how to find the happiness within and acheive self mastery.

Jesus said
Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over all.

Interpreting, understanding, seeking, finding, attaining mastery: these are gnostic prescriptions for salvation. What is another term associated with
salvation? Preservation, so in our knowing we gain self mastery and in doing so we preserve our very being.

Jesus said
When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realise that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you will dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.

My understanding of this is that we have a choice poverty of spirit or prosperity of spirit, and we gain prosperity of spirit through self development.

Later in the gospel there is another statement about self knowledge.

If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.

This suggests that gnosis is not merely understanding, not a passive thing, it is a bringing forth of that which is within you, aspects of the self that can be postively integrated so that wholeness can be achieved. Carl Jung was fascinated by the Gnostics and brought a great deal of Gnostism into his work.

Some of these wisdom teachings did find there way into the bible for instance the essentially gnostic message found its way into Luke's gospel

"the Kingdom of GOD is within you" Luke 17:21

So the conclusion, through self development one can achieve liberation from human needs, desires and emotions that control human behaviour and in so doing one is able to become a master of the self, access the heart of being and align our energies with the spiritual being within. Our higher self the true essence and nature of who we really are. A spiritual being having a human experience.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[FriendRob]

Apparently Gnosticism is still alive and kicking in spite of the Church's best efforts to eradicate it so part of my question is 'what is the form of Gnosticism today?'. Are there societies, common worship, rituals, etc.?

I'm pretty sure you won't find anyone who ascribes to the whole mythical apparatus of Gnosticism nowadays. I particularly doubt that there are groups that teach that the Creator god is evil. It survives in art and literature, mostly: check out Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series - it's pure Gnosticism.

SacredStar - do you consider yourself Gnostic? Are you part of an organized group?

It seems to me that unless one has had an extraordinary metaphysical experience in which Knowledge comes crashing in, invited or not, Gnosis does not seem like something attainable by everyone.

I think the idea is more that there is some secret knowlege that has been passed down from Jesus or someone that hasn't been written in books. Although there is certainly the feeling that having one's own revelations was valued, too. Orthodox Christians complained that the Gnostics had new revelations every day.

And if Gnosis can be achieved by something other than an extraordinary experience, such as by training or personal investigation/reason, how do you *know* you have not been deluded by your ego self?

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Tho one could say the same thing about faith....

And, from the perspective of Gnostic Christians, if one "Knows" does one no longer need faith? And if one no longer needs faith, and yet still accepts that there is God/Ground of Being, is there no longer free will or is conscience (or personal knowing) the only source of morality, rather than exterior morailty from Scripture or civil law? And if this is the case, how is it different than humanism?

Some Gnostics seem to have taken this route, and decided that morality was irrelevant. You can see this attitude already in Paul, who asks somewhere "Should we then sin?" (Paul's answer, of course, is "By no means!" But by asking the question he is probably reflecting what some early Christians were saying.)

But others held to a strict morality: chastity, never marrying, eating no meat, etc.

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Friendrob

SacredStar - do you consider yourself Gnostic? Are you part of an organized group?

On reflection of your question I would say that I have read more of what is termed Gnostic scripture and text books associated with the same then any other. (I would include Christian Mysticism in that too) Like all philosophy and wisdom I accept what resonates with my Gnosis and leave the rest behind. I am not part of an organised group but I do run an Academy of esoteric healing arts.

"Orthodox Christians complained that the Gnostics had new revelations every day."

Very true !


Quote from lunamoth
And if Gnosis can be achieved by something other than an extraordinary experience, such as by training or personal investigation/reason, how do you *know* you have not been deluded by your ego self?


Well in self development and the pathway to enlightenment these things are resolved.


Quote from Lunamoth:
"And, from the perspective of Gnostic Christians, if one "Knows" does one no longer need faith? And if one no longer needs faith, and yet still accepts that there is God/Ground of Being, is there no longer free will or is conscience (or personal knowing) the only source of morality, rather than exterior morailty from Scripture or civil law? And if this is the case, how is it different than humanism?"

In Gnosis your faith in self and the universe strengthens and becomes all powerful. I guess my signature explains it, when you knows your own power of manifestation, you live in true humility of it.

Free will is constantly surrendered to divine will and the divine self in my experience. Conscience and personal knowing is not the only source of morality, I would say that Gnostics are in tune with the natural laws of the universe and for this reason more in line with naturalists.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Lunamoth

I particulary enjoyed the Gnostic scholar and author Stephan A. Hoeller's book Jung and the Lost Gospels. He dedicates a whole chapter to the 'Dancing Savior' and of course dancing is a part of mysticism in the east. Dancing is an experience so also part of Gnosis. Of course we don't find much dancing and celebration of life in the Bible. I understand that the church fathers deemed dancing to be a pagan act so this expression of joy was frowned upon.

So one could say that Gnostisicm is experiential.

The Dancing Savior

The hymn that Master Jesus sang

Glory to Thee, Father!
(and the disciples moving around in a circle answered him)
Amen! Glory to Thee.
Charis (Grace)! Glory to thee Spirit!
Glory to Thee Holy One!
Glory to Thy Glory! Amen!
We praise Thee, O Father;
We give thanks to Thee, O Light;

In Whom Darkness dwells not! Amen!
For what we would give thanks, I say:
I would be saved; and I would save. Amen!
I would be loosed’ and I would loose. Amen!
I would be broken; and I wish to give birth. Amen!
I would eat; and I would be eaten. Amen!
I would hear; and I would be heard. Amen!
I would understand; and I would be understood. Amen!
I would be washed; and I would wash. Amen!
Now Charis is dancing.
I would play on the pipes; dance all of you. Amen!
I would play a song of mourning; lament all of you. Amen!
The eight sings praises with us. Amen!
Those that dance not, know not what cometh to pass. Amen!
I would flee; and I would stay. Amen!
I would be adorned; and be adorned. Amen!
I would be at-oned; and I would at-one. Amen!
I have no house; and I have houses. Amen!
I have no place; and I have places. Amen!
I have no temple; and I have temples. Amen!
I am a lamp to thee who seest. Amen!
I am a mirror to thee who understandest me. Amen!
I am a door to those who knockest at me. Amen!
I am a way to thee a wayfarer. Amen!
Now answer to my dancing!
See thyself in me who speak;
And seeing what I do, keep silence on my mysteries.

Understand by dancing, what I do;
For thine is the passion of man
That I am to suffer.
Thou couldst not all be aware
Of what thou dost suffer,
If I were not sent as the Logos by he father.
Seeing that I suffer, thou sawest me suffering;
And seeing, thou didst no stand still,
But wast moved greatly, thou wast moved to be wise.
Thou hast me for a couch; rest thou upon me.
What I am thou shalt know when I depart.
What now I AM seen to be, that I AM not.


But what I AM thou shalt see when thou comest.
If thou hadst known how to suffer,
Thou wouldst have power not to suffer.
Know then how to suffer, then thou will have the power not to suffer.
That which thou knowest not, I myself will instruct thee.
I AM God, no the betrayers’.
I would be kept in time with holy souls.
In me know thou the Logos of Sophia.
Say thou to me again:
Glory to Thee, Father! Glory to Thee, Logos!
Glory to Thee Holy Spirit!
But as for me, if thou wouldst know who I was:
In a word I AM the Logos who did dance all things, and who was not ashamed at all.
It was I who danced.
But do thou understand all, and understanding, say:
Glory to Thee Father!± Amen!

Chapter The Dancing Savior
Jung and the Lost Gospels ~ Insights into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library. By Stephan A. Hoeller

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Lunamoth

Yes you are correct in modern terms Gnostics would probably be called humanists and of course Jesus held this philosophy too. When I spoke of naturalists I was thinking more of the term in relation to many of the ancient philosophers who did embrace the natural laws of the universe in my view.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[lunamoth]

FriendRob, Sacredstar,

Thank you for the replies.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Tho one could say the same thing about faith....

Yes, that's the problem. Either way one makes a decision.

Yes you are correct in modern terms Gnostics would probably be called humanists and of course Jesus held this philosophy too. When I spoke of naturalists I was thinking more of the term in relation to many of the ancient philosophers who did embrace the natural laws of the universe in my view.

Humanism: 3. a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values.; esp : a philosophy that asserts the dignity and worth of man and his capacity for self-realization through reason and that often rejects supernaturalism. (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 1981)

Naturalism: 1. action, inclination, or thought based only on natural desires and instincts 2: a theory denying that an event or object has a supernatural significance; specif: the doctrine that scientific laws are adequate to account for all phenomena 3: realism in art or literature; specif: a theory in literature emphasizing scientific observation of life without idealizatin or the avoidance of the ugly. (Ibid)

Natural Law: a body of law or a specific principle held to be derived from nature and binding upon human society in the absence of or in addition to positive law. (Ibid)

Positive Law: (n) law established or recognized by governmental authority (Ibid).

Sacredstar, is your interpretation that Jesus was not divine, or just that he was no more divine than you or me. Do the above definitions reflect your use of the terms humanism and naturalism/natural law?

"Dost though think thyself only a puny form, when the universe is folded up within thee?" (attributed to The Imam Ali by Abdu'l Baha in The Secret of Divine Civilization.)

 

[iBrian]

in modern terms Gnostics would probably be called humanists

I find this an odd statement - Humanism is a very specific branch of philosophy, whereas Gnosticism is a very specific theology in its own right.

 

[Sacredstar]

Dear Lunamoth

My Gnosis that we are all divine as well as human.

Humanism: 3. a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values.; esp : a philosophy that asserts the dignity and worth of man and his capacity for self-realization through reason.

Jesus certainly embraced all of the above in my view.

Natural Law: a body of law or a specific principle held to be derived from nature and binding upon human society in the absence of or in addition to positive law. (Ibid)

The above is certainly true.

"Sacredstar, is your interpretation that Jesus was not divine, or just that he was no more divine than you or me."

He was divine in my view and even more so then you and I but yet we all the ability to be so, as Jesus said 'you can all do this even better then I'.

I was going through my records and found some other interesting links so will post them later, have to go out now.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

 

[Sacredstar]

I feel people confuse faith with religion but yet people can have faith in many different things that have nothing to do with religion or GOD.

Dear Brian

I feel like other philosophy the Gnostic philosophy evolved out of many areas for instance some of the mythology does seem to be influnced by Enoch.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar