What If The Devil Became Truly Repentant...

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Namaste Jesus, May 2, 2016.

  1. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Here's something to ponder. What if the devil became truly repentant. Would God forgive him and if so, how would that change things?
     
  2. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I asked a couple of Witnesses, they couldn't accept the scenario.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, forgiveness ... It's the simplest commandment, and the toughest, if public opinion is anything to go by.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Not a great deal, I would have thought. We're quite good at making bad choices, without outside interference!
     
  5. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Depends on who you ask. Plenty of groups still espousing the evil influence of the Devil in many religions.
     
  6. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Witnesses???
    Perhaps, but what of the question? Would God forgive the devil if he became truly repentant?
     
  7. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Jehovah's Witnesses
     
  8. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Oh, ok.
     
  9. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    The Islamic view is that he has already been judged. Also, unlike us, He witnessed Allah and his work. He had knowledge of Allah's authority, and refused to follow it. His future is sealed.
     
  10. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    When God created Adam from clay, he commanded every angel to fall down in submission. However, Satan refused to submit. This pattern, which is told in the Koran, repeats itself with the appearance of every Manifestation of God (Koran 38.67-74). Let's assume God forgives Satan. How would this change things? The Manifestations of God wouldn't be persecuted (Mark 12.1-9). Religious schisms wouldn't happen. Moses wouldn't face off against Moses or, in other words, Christians wouldn't deny Muhammad's prophethood, nor would Muslims deny the prophethood of Baha'u'llah. This is my understanding of the Baha'i perspective.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    OK. As a theoretical answer to a theoretical question: If the devil became repentant, then forgiveness is possible.

    A Catholic theological answer to the question is no, as Scripture seems quite definite on that point. To understand that would require a Catholic understanding of the nature of angels, which is different from the nature of man. St Thomas Aquinas is called 'the Angelic Doctor' because he wrote more about angels than anyone else, and argued reasonably, rationally and logically about what constitutes an angel, and what that constitution implies. Angels are creatures of pure intellect, in that they have no material body. From this he argues, for example, that each angel is its own species, there are no two angels of the same species (they would be indistinguishable if there were).

    Thomas goes on to argue that a thing is known according to what it is, and what it is makes itself known according to its 'act' – thus a demonic intellect is demonic because that's what it is, but because it is what it is, it cannot repent, because a good thing cannot arise from the bad. (This same argument, which is philosophically rational, reasoned and sound, also knocks the 'sinning to get closer to God' excuse into touch.)

    So if the devil is pure evil, how can the devil repent, as repentance is contrary to its nature ... ?
     
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  12. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Thanks Thomas. For once I was looking forward to your response.;)
    Yeah that's more or less the Christian view as well. My thinking is, God could no more forgive Satan than Satan could become repentant, because there may be nothing for God to forgive and nothing for Satan to repent for. That is, Satan's rebellion may have been part of God's plan all along and Satan may have done exactly as he was created to do. Provide the contrast between good and evil that would ultimately shape mankind.

    My father was one rotten SOB. To say he made life difficult for us growing up is a gross understatement. I harbored ill feelings for him long after his passing until I had occasion to ask a Hindu Soothsayer why my father did the things he did. Much to my surprise I was told that my father did exactly as he was supposed to do and that if he hadn't, I wouldn't have become the person I was and a lot of people would be much the worse because of it. He than proceeded to give me specific examples that completely changed my way of thinking...
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
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  13. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    Would God forgive the devil? Probably. Would the devil ask to be forgiven? Probably not. Would it change anything? Doubtful. Too many offshoots eager to carry on the family tradition.
     
  14. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    The Islamic view of this is actually quite different. What you are describing is Allah's (God's) ability to know future and present. He knew Satan would be wrong, but gave him life anyway. He allowed Satan to choose to do wrong, and then passed judgement. He didn't create him to do such, but he knew he would. I know this gets a bit circular, and I'm probably not knowledgeable enough to give a detailed "How" on the topic, but in our view Djinn (of which Satan was) are given free will. He was risen to the ranks amongst angels. But unlike them he had free will. Upon the order to bow to Adam, his pride and arrogance (a creationary weakness, whereas we believe we are more important than we are) caused him to disobey. Allah knew this would happen, and he knew the deal Satan would construct and the reprocussions of such. The deal he made would ensure a test for all mankind. His purpose then is not defined by Allah, it is carved by his (Satan's) decisions.

    I would say yes your present self is a consequence of actions done by your father (among other people/things) and in that he is true. IMO, a person who does wrong will be judged as that, not by some "well look at the good that came from the bad he did". In Islam we say the good that came out is Allah's mercy, so that you would be judged on your own actions. a different person growing up in my family (as in different soul or different personality even) might have very well been a drunk racist thug dead by 16. I was in the place and environment that could have (and did) spawn many young people into that mindset.
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    The degree to which our fathers shape us is almost incalculable.
     
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  16. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I can never buy this argument. It would equally apply to humanity as well, in which case all the great spiritual traditions which speak of 'sin' have got it wrong.

    Who needs the contrast? Not God, and not man. A god who requires the degree of suffering in the world that is evident is a pretty crap god, in my opinion.

    Hmmm ...
     
  17. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Not really. Even if Satin was predisposed to sin, it is still up to us whether or not to allow his influence to lead us astray.
    Without it, there's no depth. No right or wrong. Everything is one dimensional. Contrast gives us a cleaner view to choose from.
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Can you then explain (apart from why God would will something against His own will – and for our benefit is not an answer) why if Satan's predisposition to sin is OK, ours is not? Why do we get punished for doing stuff that's OK for Satan to do?

    Sorry no, this is an 'ends justifies the means' argument. God does not need the contrast, any more than He needs to know He is right. Nor does man need the contrast to know instinctively what is good. Therefore ...

    If that were true, we could only be happy according to the amount of pain we have experienced.
     
  19. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Why ask the question if you've already rejected the answer? I never said it was ok for Satin to sin. Only the possibility he was predisposed to do so. Doing something seeming contrary for our benefit does not necessarily mean it goes against God's will.
    This is where we disagree. No worries, just a contrast of opinion.
    Experiencing pain is certainly not paramount to happiness and that's not what I'm saying. Only that, if one experiences sin first hand and the consequences there of, they are less likely to derive pleasure from it and strive to avoid it. Thereby giving us maximum opportunity to choose good over evil and taking away any excuse to do otherwise.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I always seek to expand my understanding and challenge my thinking. It's the only reason I continue here, really.

    S'fine. Just checking the logic.

    Actually that's not true. There are many instances where the opposite is so often the case it almost a given.

    Perhaps, but that's a humanist/moral line of reasoning really doesn't cut it with Christ, or on a spiritual path. One should love the good for its own sake. Nothing else comes close, or goes so far.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2016

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