Here We Go Again. Another Mass Shooting.

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Devils' Advocate, Jun 13, 2016.

  1. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    This time in Orlando. In an LGBT night club. Murderer was Muslim and supposedly called the police from the scene and said he did it in the name of ISIS. I've purposefully posted the article from the BBC because all the US reporting is ISLAMIC TERRORISM STRIKES AGAIN. The BBC makes at least an attempt at being neutral in their report.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36514608
     
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  2. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I've read so many articles, and of course they change daily based on new evidence. one moment he had never been on a watch list, nor suspected of any ties to ISIS or any terrorist organization, the next he called in to 911 to declare an allegience to ISIS, next day he seems to have been investigated 2x and has been planning the attack for months. The stories seem to be developing in a non-worldly way. These reports don't support each other nor make sense. Why would he call in to declare allegience to ISIS? Why would he have waited until he had an altercation with gay men on the street to decide to act, and why oh why would ISIS give 2 craps about a gay nightclub in Orlando? I guess it is possible the truth of the situation is out there, but all reports at this point sound like media agenda 100%. It sucks that this is happening, and It is appalling that a man who claimed to be Muslim would take these measures (although to be fair, kinda on a light note, at least this attack was solely on Adults, and assuming mostly males, it could have been much worse, although it did end up very bad...)... it is saddening to say the least. He was really only successful in uniting the Republican right with the Gay community for a single purpose of fearing and angering people against Muslims.
     
  3. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    I just found out a friend was visiting Orlando and was caught up in this. I couldn't wrap my head around the hate before. Now I can't wrap my head around anything.
     
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Is he/she OK?
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Friends here think this kind of thing is handing the election to Trump on a plate.

    So we're looking at:
    Britain out of Europe;
    Boris Johnson as the next Conservative leader/Prime Minister
    Donald Trump President of the USA.

    Not the most inspiring of prospects ...
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    And does anyone think the US will change its position on gun law any time soon?
     
  7. Senthil

    Senthil Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately Thomas, no. The prospects are dim for any change, given how polarized it is, and the power of the gun lobby. I'm happy to be north of the border. We are by no means immune to it, but it is significantly less likely here to have people getting assault rifles.
     
  8. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    He is, thankfully. Sorry my post sounded so dramatic. I thought I included that part already. He was in the club but escaped early. Just a reminder of how you can be pulled even deeper into something you're already focused on. Never would have thought he'd have been there. Lives in Hong Kong but decides to visit family in Florida.
     
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  9. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    We will not. Maybe in a couple of generations. But today, forget it. And it is completely because of the power of the gun lobby. The NRA which, decades ago had a balanced stance of gun ownership versus gun safety, has become nothing more than a shill for the gun manufacturers. Far as I am concerned the NRA is itself a terrorist organization. Their only mantra is "We Need More Guns!"

    And they push the fiction that the 2nd Amendment guarantees that citizens have the right to any kind of gun, no matter how devastating its killing power. Which the amendment most certainly does NOT say. The irresponsibility of this organization knows no bounds.
     
  10. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    P.S. Glad to hear your friend is okay, Steve. How easily it could have gone either way.
     
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  11. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    Thanks. Yeah, that's what I've been thinking.
     
  12. Senthil

    Senthil Well-Known Member

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    Anybody. Anywhere. Anytime.

    Those of us who have lived much length of time realise this. Steve, I know that probably doesn't help, but you know, after awhile, very little surprises me any more. I've 'lost' nieces to car accidents, students to asthma, Hindu fellow devotees to war, acquaintances caught in random gunfire, friends to heart attacks, a mother to Alzheimers, and more. Nothing surprises me. That phone can ring any minute. Easily any way.
     
  13. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    I'm sorry that you've been through all of that.

    Your comment does help me reflect on the fact that everything can change in an instant. Makes me appreciate the time I have with family and friends that much more knowing these moments won't last, be it age, violence, or accident.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Yes, it's staggering when those moments happen and you look around and the rest of the world is carrying on like nothing's happened ... this years' gonna be one of mixed blessings for us ... I've got a daughter getting married (Aug, an Anglo-Canadian co-production), and her twin is having my/her first grand/child (July) ... but they lost their grandad a few months ago and grandma is declining rapidly. On my side, my dad went the year before they were born, and my mum is slipping away into dementia...

    Rage, rage against the dying of the light! (Dylan Thomas)

    +++

    There was a gun lobby guy on the UK news yesterday, who's basic line was that the interviewer had a 'victim mindset', unlike the sensible attitude of readiness to defend oneself and one's family.

    The devil in me was saying the interviewer should have popped his eyes wide and said "Gosh, what a horrible, backward, lawless, banana-republic you live in, when the only way you can feel safe is by possessing a domestic arsenal of semi-automatic weapons!"

    Having said that, the Brit media suppresses the amount of gun-crime that occurs here. Mostly (by a massive margin) is drug-related turf wars (one of my girlies lives in, and I worked in, 'disputed territory' where the events are common and never make the news). The obvious solution is legalisation, but that's way too sensible and although every MP privately admits that's the way to go, they won't publicly because the right-wing media gets hysterical about such matters and will destroy their careers if they speak out.

    +++

    Soho last night, the 'sleaze' capital of London (used to work there, a great place), was rammed, thousands turning out to show solidarity. Let's hope we can clutch something positive from the negative and work on a change of attitude ... but like the US gun laws, those who can change already have, and those who don't want to will just entrench themselves in their prejudice.

    +++

    So there we have the Deity (yours, mine, whoever's) with two guys kissing on one side, and a guy holding a smoking gun standing on a pile of corpses and injured on the other ... I wonder which of the two upsets Him more?
     
  15. Senthil

    Senthil Well-Known Member

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    Yes, appreciation happens by the moment. The affirmation of 'Anybody. Anywhere. Anytime.' just helps to rid oneself of that totally illogical thing called death denial. Not just in others, but our own physical body's death as well.

    Even with the more real and logical perspective, its still tough some days. And of course as we age the incidence rate of it in our lives only increases.

    @Thomas ... Over here the scariest stuff we get about Britain is football hooliganism.
     
  16. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Which is the mantra over here. And which is total bulls**t. Statistics constantly show that having guns in the home it is way more likely that the gun in that home will be used by someone in that home against someone in that home. Either accidentally or on purpose.

    Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer*.
    Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
    For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
    43 percent of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
    • In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

    Of course facts are no longer relevant in any intelligent conversation, so gun owners keep blowing smoke about how they have their guns to protect their families.

    *Gun Myths Fact Check Article.
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check
     
  17. Dan0813

    Dan0813 Well-Known Member

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    Does it not seem insensitive to start a thread about a mass shooting and then use it as propaganda against legal gun ownership?

    As long as we're on the subject, don't you think that if some of the victims had been armed, the outcome may have been different?
     
  18. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    You know, in this particular instance it's entirely possible that tighter gun control laws would not have made any difference. Here's how messed up the situation is. The individual responsible had been questioned by the FBI on at least 2 occasions for what they call, "limited contact" with know terror organizations and remained on their watch list. In spite of that, he was able to pass a background check and obtain a job with a private [Armed] security firm. Bear in mind, the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI must sign off on these things as private armed security is considered a Regulated Militia just like law enforcement and the military. In spite of what the NRA would have us believe and what laws have been passed by individual states, regulated militias are the only organization the 2nd amendment, (right to bear arms), applies to. Being a member of such a group the individual responsible for this senseless act could feasibly have been able to acquire weapons not available to the general public had such laws been in place.
    Gee, a bunch of tipsy party goes with guns. What could go wrong there? You should apply for a position with the US Government.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
  19. Dan0813

    Dan0813 Well-Known Member

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    As a military veteran and former employee of a defense contractor, I've had my fill of working for the U.S. government, but thanks for the compliment. :)

    Based on statistics alone, there would probably have been fewer deaths.
     
  20. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Last I checked it was legal in TN. SMDH.

    I disagree with your analysis of the second amendment though...
    I would say the 'well regulated Militia' (as describes as a force necessary to protect a state as one must realize their view was this country was 13 individual states joined under a union, not 1 union containing several partitions. each had their own views, and to avoid conflicts such as the English/Scottish wars where the Scottish were not allowed by their "lords" the English to have weapons, much oppression was at stake. Before the Revolutionary War the English attempted to do the same to the American Colonies, especially after the acts of aggression such as the Boston Tea Party.) and the right 'of the people to keep and bear arms' are both protected individually by this statement.

    I'm also not so sure I buy all these "facts" surrounding him. The day after the shooting the state department had issued statements (according to several articles) that they had never had him under investigation, nor suspected him of any even loose ties to ISIS. Police and investigators claimed it looked as if it was a situation where he was distressed at the sight of his son having to see the men kissing outside and had an altercation which led to a further altercation when he came back with an AR. Now we hear he was investigated 2x, he had ties with ISIS, he called into 911 to declare such (not sure on why the need would be there?????), and newest reports that he was a regular recognized visitor. IDK... I know investigations are to bring to light unknown facts, but if he had been on a watch list and investigated and questioned 2x why wouldn't the initial reports include that?
     

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