Irredeemable?

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Operacast, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. Operacast

    Operacast Member

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    From the beginning of Trump’s campaign, I’ve found his appeal to bigotries of all sorts utterly repugnant and just about as blatant as any of the appeals coming from racists of another time like George Wallace or Lester Maddox. That’s one big reason, among many, why I’m voting for Hillary Clinton this November.

    However, while she still has my vote, I am troubled by Hillary Clinton’s remarks about Trump's supporters, not because of what she first says about the sorts of bigotries coming from many a Trump supporter. We’ve all heard those, and they are manifestly a part of the toxic mix behind the current Trump support.

    What really troubles me is the back half of her remarks on some of the bigots supporting Trump: She says “they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America”. I wish she had apologized for that part of her remarks, but she never did. No one is irredeemable. Even George Wallace had a change of heart. No one has a right to arbitrarily foreclose on anyone’s having a change of heart. No one has a right to say any human being is irredeemable. To say anyone is irredeemable is to sound as if one has infallible wisdom, as if one is somehow a god. No one has that kind of wisdom. And even if one did have that sort of wisdom, one would then know that anyone like Wallace can certainly be redeemed. If Wallace himself could change, and he did, anyone can.

    Not only is it troubling to arbitrarily say that no one can be redeemed, it is also a denial of reality to say “they are not America”. Of course, they are part of America. Sure, they are a bitter and sad part of America, but if one loves America, then one has to accept them as part of America too. If one is running for President, one has to love all of America, even the part that can give one pain and bitter disappointment. I utterly deplore where such supporters seem to be “coming from”. But if I hope to lift up America as President, then I have to hope for some measure of redemption and change of heart even among those Americans whose current feelings can turn my stomach. Despite my being sickened, a degree of compassion can still inspire hope in me that anyone can rise above any bigoted hatreds they have temporarily fallen into this election cycle.

    That is the kind of love that one has for one’s own family, after all, and that’s the kind of love I would hope any President would have for this country, even when it’s momentarily riven by bigotries that are painfully hateful. Love of one’s family can sometimes help lift the most bitter of one’s loved ones beyond any hatred that may be dragging her down for a day or a year or more. At the same time, that same love can lift the bitterest places in our country up above the hateful bigotries of the moment. Of course, it’s a bitter hard slog of an assignment. There will be many and bitter disappointments. But if one loves one’s countrymen as a family, one will never give up despite those disappointments. The better angels of our nature are somewhere uniformly buried deep inside each of us. Sometimes we can bring them out. Sometimes not. But we never give up if we want to be President.

    Thoughts?

    Operacast
     
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  2. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    It is the division that polarize groups of people to the point where communication and cooperation is no longer possible. I think it can occur in all great groups of peoples and we see it it right now in immigration in Europe. I assume it serves to strengthen the resolve of the opposing groups and unite the members against a common enemy, but I'm opposed it on principle.
     
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  3. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Half right. Half wrong. They are irredeemable.* They are America. They have always been a part of America. But then they have always been a part of almost every country. They represent the least in what it means to be human. They deserve nothing but contempt for the evil they represent. And their way of life needs to be constrained to the outer circles of acceptable society.

    What is the most troubling to me is that they now represent the most inner circle of the Republican party. They love Trump and Trump loves them ("I love the uneducated"). Trump's campaign manager is one of them. Trump's entire message is based on the 'right to hate'. He has taken it out of the shadows and made it acceptable behavior.

    That should be damned by any American who believes in our way of life.

    *Yes there are potentially a tiny few who could have a change of heart later in life. The majority will not change, no matter what.
     
  4. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    But it sounds like you hate them? Calling "them" irredeemable and contemptible?
     
  5. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    I certainly hate what they stand for. But calling them what they are is not hateful, it's simply calling them what they are. There are times to be politic and times to say it like it is. I think it is more offensive to try and pretend they are something they are not. Such as misguided for example. They are not misguided, they are fascists.
     
  6. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Just following a logic here: Much have been justified in the name of 'calling them what they are'. I have a different perspective, they are what they are and we are what we are, so either we can make war with each other or cooperate at the best of our ability.
     
  7. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    What if a group, such as these people are, have no interest and want no part of cooperating with you? I'm all for cooperation - it has to be a two way street!
     
  8. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I don't see it as one group all the time, by making every effort to hold out a hand for those who want it, I make their unity weaker. By condemning everyone who hold one common opinion (Trump, immigration, tax) I solidify their unity, and make them less interested in listening to what I have to say on the subject. Would enough people, on both sides, treat each other as intelligent (not redeemable because that is rather arrogant) people of differing opinions then the US, Europe or Sweden can move over the moats we have dug and through walls we have built. We won't always like the outcome of this cooperation but we won't need a Trump or a Brexit.
     
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  9. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Just curious here. In your mind is full agreement a prerequisite to cooperation?
     
  10. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Full agreement? Of course not. If we were looking for full agreement few of us would ever get anywhere. To have cooperation of any kind there must be a will to at least consider cooperation. One doesn't find much of it in the hate groups in this country that have up till now been kept on the fringes.

    Tea, history has shown us that there are just some people that have no interest of any kind in cooperation. Europe tried this with Hitler after he invaded Poland. The Allies tried to be conciliatory with a 'can we work this out' attitude. You know how that worked out. Sometimes there are people who are not redeemable. They have no interest in being redeemable.
     
  11. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I'm not assuming there is an utopian reality where every problem will be handled with mutual respect and civility. I am saying that having the attitude that the groups of people one is addressing is irredeemable as a whole exasperates the problem. A self-fulfilling prophecy, to throw in some religious vernacular.
     
  12. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Just to be clear, what specific group(s) are we labeling bigots and what specific crime has earned them the title? Are we talking Trump supporters in general? A particular segment? Something else?
     
  13. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    now you've done it DA, NJ is asking for specificity! That's new!
     
  14. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    I'm taking the fifth on that one! And I don't mean whiskey!

    NJ, I cannot speak for everyone else. I am speaking of a select segment of the people who support Trump who one would be included under the banner of White Supremacist groups (some prefer the term White Nationalist groups but the bigotry is the same), such as the KKK and the Neo-Nazis. It is notable the most every White Nationalist group in the country has thrown their support behind Trump for President.
     
  15. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Ok, I'll agree with you there. These types of organizations do fit the label and not a whole lot of cooperation is ever going to be possible. Yes, they do tend to support Trump over Hillary, but I think that has more to do with her being a woman than it does Trumps rhetoric. Although, I can see where some of the things he's said would be appealing to them.

    These types of groups are one thing, but my issue is with the way terms like bigot and racist are often used in our society. It always seemed to me to be a bit one sided. I mean, you can have a Black Unity March or a Gay Pride Parade, but all hell breaks loose if you dare promote White or Heterosexual anything. Those who participate or even suggest it are automatically labeled racists and bigots. It seems like we're all caught up in a perpetual state of the tail wagging the dog and the rights of the majority cast aside. That's what has allowed extremist organizations to flourish, not Trump's rhetoric.
     
  16. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Well we are not going to agree on your last statement, so let's leave that as personal idealogical differences.

    Otherwise I see what you are saying now, and I agree with you. Too much of the time these days the words racist & bigot are inappropriately used. And people have become so oversensitive that any indication at all of an attitude is attacked. As before, I would use the small and Capital letters to differentiate between people with a strong opinion versus people who are maniacal about their beliefs. There are plenty of bigots out there, and as Tea suggests, bigots with the small 'b' should not be considered as irredeemable. They may have strong feelings about 'x' but you can have a conversation with them.

    But groups like the Aryan Nation are hardcore Bigots and Racists who, for the most part, are irredeemable.
     
  17. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    You know, if you guys could avoid discussing religion and politics, you'd probably get on quite well.
     
  18. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    As a group I tend to agree. On an individual basis however, I'm not so sure. I think a lot of people join these organizations out of frustration. Many feel betrayed by mainstream society and these groups offer a way, albeit misguided, to fight back. Address their concerns on an individual basis and there's opportunity for redemption, one soul at a time.
     
  19. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Since my name popped up I just want to clarify that 'b' and 'B' are only theoretical to me. Theoretically given enough time the conditions for a change of heart could occur for anyone. Since most humans are mortal that time is limited.
     
  20. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    I agree! We have more in common than not. And I think the two of us could have a sit down of an evening and have a great time carrying on about matters high and low for that matter.
     

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