Question regarding Jinn and "evil spirits"

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Biggerjohn, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Biggerjohn

    Biggerjohn New Member

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    Hello,

    I've got a question regarding who/what the Jinn are. I have come to understand from my own research and reading of the Quran that, according to Islam, Jinn are beings that came from fire as opposed to light and dust/clay which angels and mankind respectfully came from. I have also come to understand that Jinn, like mankind, has free will to obey or disobey, while angels don't.

    Question: Are Jinn essentially the same things that the Christian New Testament labels "demons or devils"?

    Specifically, are the "spirits" talked about in the following Jinn?

    Mark 5:1-14
    "And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

    But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, and cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

    For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

    And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

    Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

    And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done."

    Thank you in advance for your help in understanding.

    Always sincere....
    John B
     
  2. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Hi John, I can only answer you from my own interprettation with evidence of conversations I've had that lead to those conclusions. I have no scholarly backing.

    IMO, it is a sound idea that Jinn are the demons/devils referred to. Even the fact that there are good Djinn/bad Djinn after hearing the Quran from Mouhammed (PBUH) seems to line up with the idea that they were all evil or mostly evil before. Now How did they become evil in the first place if Allah created them essentially equal to us? I can only assume Shaytan had a much bigger impact on his own kind.

    However I also believe certain "unexplained" apperations are also Djinn. Such as Ghosts, ghouls, etc. So I'm probably wrong :)
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Not quite, I think, as Satan disobeyed, and thus fell.

    Some orders of angels also discourse with man, so that requires a capacity for intellective thought, to hold a conversation.

    The Greeks held that angels are creatures of pure intellect — as you say, light — and Aquinas went some way to discuss the nature of angels, more than any other, which earned him the nickname of 'the Angelic Doctor'.










    Question: Are Jinn essentially the same things that the Christian New Testament labels "demons or devils"?

    Specifically, are the "spirits" talked about in the following Jinn?

    Mark 5:1-14
    "And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.

    But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, and cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

    For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

    And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

    Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

    And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done."

    Thank you in advance for your help in understanding.

    Always sincere....
    John B[/QUOTE]
     
  4. Biggerjohn

    Biggerjohn New Member

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    Thanks for your response.
     
  5. Biggerjohn

    Biggerjohn New Member

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    I am actually of a similar mindset as you are on this.
    I should have clarified my earlier statements better: It is my understanding that Islam teaches that angels come form light, Jinn from fire, etc..
    My own personal belief is that Angels have as much free will as anyone else.

    Ugh! I have no more time.... there is more I want to say but I have to go. Hopefully tomorrow!

    Always sincere....
    John B
     
  6. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Obviously different standpoints... In Islam Satan is not a "fallen angel". However, in an offbeaten way goes to explain how the original writers of the Bible came to understand it to be. Djinn are not only made of fire, but are a much more ancient creation of Allah. One of the first created was Shaytan, commonly given the name "Lucifer" or "the Devil" in English traditions of the Bible. He was so subservient to Allah, that he had been raised to the ranks of Angels. With all this blessing, he began to see himself as the greatest creation. Then Allah created man. He ordered the angels to bow to Adam, Shaytan refused, an act of disobedience, which could not be allowed. He knew Allahs orders were the top authority and the consequences of disobeying, yet his pride and jealousy wouldn't allow him to do it.

    The free will of Angels comes down to theory of what a spirit is, and how it comes to a form. In most schools of Islam the soul is believed to be created in Jannah (heaven) and given the choice of a good peaceful afterlife without a test of faith, or a reward far beyond comprehension with a test of faith. The soul chooses and the form is given it. Angels are those who do not have the ability to disobey. Nor are they free to believe or not. Djinn and Humans are, as well as some possible other creations.

    We are obviously not going to agree on these, just stating this for the difference of mindset, that maybe you can understand the different outlooks of the religion. Other than Satan, I just don't see many references to "fallen angels" biblically, nor much evidence of free will of angels. but maybe I am just not as schooled in it.
     
  7. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    Jinn should be understood in the same vain as bodhisattvas...

    They are not Good or Evil, they have transcended the sensual plain in which such divisions exist.

    All mystics are Jinn, for they are born of fire, not the womb of water.
     
  8. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    Angel translates as "Messenger of God".

    In Sufism, there is the notion of Fana, the utter annihilation of that which generates free will.

    Of course, it is a misnomer, it was an illusion from the start.

    Seeing this, angels are freed of their bindings.

    They are utterly subservient to God.

    John 14:10 is an example in the Bible of Jesus being an Angel.

    It is true of all enlightened beings, something else is moving in them.
     
  9. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    Jinn are somewhere between human and angel.

    They are not wholly subservient to the animal or divine.

    Hence they are free to act in a manner that can be called evil, despite being aware of their inherent divinity.

    Fana is not yet complete.
     
  10. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    It is a fair assertion...

    Recall that the Greeks ventured to India for most of their insights.

    Such a being is called a Jnani in India...

    This is the nature of the one Jacob wrestled with all night, it was actually a dialog between Master and Disciple.

    The result is that Jacob was called Israel, he had found peace in his heart - the real Jerusalem.

    Pure intellect is no more intellectual, for all true insights result in silence and detachment.

    Although it might appear I believe in Rumi, it is only because I feel he conveys this the best... and because it is through him that I have come to understand.

    Clinging to any belief divides the indivisible wholeness.

    Apocalypse means removing the veil of separation.
     
  11. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    Every Jnani insists there is nothing but God...

    He is moved solely by the divine.
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Obviously.

    As said above, 'angels' are messengers of God.

    Interesting. How does Islam see 'fire'?

    Angels are creatures of 'light' in that they are creatures of pure intellectual whereas man is intellect and corporeal.

    Interesting, I didn't realise Islam was so dualistic. That's a clear break with the Abrahamic heritage.

    For an angel to converse with man it must possess intellect, it has the ability to hear and understand what man is saying, and compose a response?
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Does not the Bhakti say the same?
     
  14. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    For any path of Yoga to be successful in you, there must be bhakti, devotion.

    The worship we see today is not native to Hinduism though, it is a wrong meaning of the word.

    Hence, even Krishna, the primary figure of Bhakti, says "verily, the Jnani is my own Self".

    Yet, the Sufi's use the same longing as an aid to meditation and zikr, so I am not suggesting what has been introduced is not fruitful.

    Still, the Hindu line is very much characterized by direct knowledge, not what you feel - which is widely considered to be just more Maya.

    Even the experience of God is called YogMaya, because it still depends consciousness.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    In my view no-one is either this or that; one is always both, it's just a matter of inclination and degree.

    The path of the Bhakti can unfortunately display a pseudo piety, whilst the path of the jnani can display intellectual posturing.

    As the Way of the Jnani is far more appealing in the West, there's plenty of them about.

    As a Pope once said, 'we need saints, not theologians', by which he meant we need those who embody their faith, and not simply hold it, along with all their faults, as an ideology ... and this applies in the case of all traditions.
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    It is simply a creation of Allah, not inherently good or bad. Much like Dirt or air or water. it is just an elemental thing.

    2 things, First we must remember that this idea is not concrete. it is merely a thought. In Islam, if we are not told in Quran, or specifically by the Prophet (PBUH) then the only way we know it is by assuming based on evidence, to which some might be missing. This idea is a combination of several Hadith (sayings of Prophet(PBUH)) along with some assumptions, which is why there are differing opinions. As you might say, It is not Canon.
    Second, I'm not sure Dualistic is the right term. Dualistic tends to denote a Dual path. Whereas the Path for both Angels and Human/Djinn (in Islam) is the same for a positive afterlife. The only difference is Human/Djinn have the option to deviate and choose not to follow the path to subservience.

    I also want to point out that in Islam we don't believe Light is just intellect, but also goodness. We also realize the subservience of Angels means even without intellect, they receive direct influence from Allah, which is all the empowerment they would need to do all that is needed.
     
  17. Ruh Ishq

    Ruh Ishq Member

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    This is not an entirely accurate statement, by saint is meant one who is living Oneness.

    Theologians merely read about it, and it is rather erroneous to even compare them to a Jnana... the purpose of which is becoming a jnani, a saint.

    Ramana Maharshi was a Jnani, it is extremely difficult to suggest this man is a theologian in any way.

    Again, Bhakti is not loving worship as we seem to think - that word would be either kama or prema.

    Devotion means something closer to obsession, you NEED God, there is nothing else in this world that interests you.

    You are perfectly right though, the Yogi doesn't stick to one way... because God is the goal, anything that might help him in the endeavor can be included happily for him.

    Yes, experiential truth is far more necessary in our world than theory.
     
  18. Ahmad232

    Ahmad232 Member

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    Hi biggerjohn

    yes indeed the jinns are the devils and demons; the top devil, satan [the one who fell from heaven] is a jinn too

    in Islam we say there are good jinns too, but most of them are evil; vast numbers of them work for the top satan

    the reason why most of them are evil is because they're made of fire; they have a more fiery nature, but ALlah is fair; ALlah gives them long lives [much longer than ours like several hundred years or even thousands] and if they sincerely repent once, they are forgiven]
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Ah. Gotcha.

    Probably not in this case. I didn't really think Islam could be accused of dualism ...

    My point is that in Judaism, the person is a corporate body-soul thing. Soul is in a sense synonymous with life, and they come into existence at some mysterious point during pregnancy.

    There's an explicit dualism in Platonism, for example, that has the soul as eternal and, at some point, 'chooses a body' to occupy, which if true, has marked ramifications for us as humans as all that we consider to be 'me' is the product of the body-mind experience, the soul then becomes an increasingly distant and alien entity, at best a kind of 'conductor', all be it a conductor trying to lead an orchestra from inside a sound- and light-proof box!

    The body is then discarded at death and the soul moves on, and we're back with the problem that if God made the world and sees it as good, as Scripture asserts, what future is there for it?

    I though there was a Moslem tradition that Satan defied Allah by refusing to acknowledge man?

    Same here.

    Ah, here we'd probably split hairs.

    I rather think Hebrew angelology 'solved' the issue of polytheism, but I might be well off the mark there. The idea of angels as creatures of pure intellect owes a lot to Hellenic thinking, but I do think its defendable.

    Scripturally and traditionally there are nine choirs of angels, all of whom (I think) possess the capability of 'free thought', in the sense that they can act according to their own nature, they talk to man, they are messengers of God, but they are more than tape-recorders. A prophet, in a certain sense, is a mouthpiece, angels do more ...

    ... but then we'd be into a close look at our angelologies ...
     
  20. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Astral projection is dangerous to find one's self in ---cause there is the danger that you can't get back in.

    Ghosts are Astral bodies (mind-intelligence-false ego; ~aka respectively, manas-budhi-ahankara). When the soul is stripped of their gross body (earth-water-fire-air-ether) before their natural death occurred ---but the astral body (aka subtle-body) remains. The subtle-body (versus the gross body) remains standing when sudden-death occurs.
    [the "gross body" is made of the 5 elements: earth, water, fire, air & ether*]
    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancha_Bhoota

    IE: A bomb blast etc will leave one standing and "thinking & willing" after their gross body is evaporated in a flash.

    The problem with dis-embodied astral bodies is lack of physical means to carry out any activities.

    A person of weak will, Highly intoxicated and in a state of quasi-deep sleep can be inhabited by a Ghost that seeks "to enjoy once again" ---until they fad-away to take a new birth; upon which time there past life of "thinking & willing" will be dessolved and supplemented with a new vehical of birth ---appropo to the Karma (karma-phalam - fruits of works) accrued.
     
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