"Faith, faith,..." they say. But what is meant by "faith"?

Samana Johann

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What is glorious about this time? Will certain pleasure last? Isn't such merely the way the fox thought about the graps?
Lets wait till suffering comes along, then such people often think I had my chance and fall into desrie for not-being, sometimes so confused that they even kill themselves.
And after all, all that enjoying is at least based on the suffering of many. So its really selfish and without any resepect of anything to think in this way.

And seeing Steve Pames "like", how much gratitude does a devoted to Jesus have, if all that he/she can do is simply enjoying past merits and paths others did with their blood for you.

Think! Such attitude is really foolish, lacks of gratitude in any aspect and assumes that all is here for one to consume. No depts no sacrify no father and mother... terrible down leading wrong view.

It can never be called a person of faith, thinking in consumers way. And given, that nothing comes from nothing, how much gratitude does one have in regard of him self, thinking on how many sacrifies have been done by one to become a "pet" for a short time.

There is no food for the sense that does not cause death... but making people believe that one respects animals and all beings, while enjoying them at the same time.

"It might be, that there will be no more chance aside this", is actually wise, but guessing one has already found anything, one would not take it.
 

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What is glorious about this time? Will certain pleasure last? Isn't such merely the way the fox thought about the graps?

It is glorious to be alive, to have this chance in this form to experience existence. A chance to smell flowers, to watch sunrises, to hold a newborn baby as I did this past weekend. Why should pleasure last? If all there were to life is pleasure, it would quickly get boring. The suffering is what reminds us to enjoy the brief pleasures that do enter our lives.

I am acutely aware that I have a better life than many, I am also acutely aware that I have a lesser life than others still. No two lives are the same, it would be nonsensical to think all lives should be identical. Even nature teaches us otherwise.

Lets wait till suffering comes along, then such people often think I had my chance and fall into desrie for not-being, sometimes so confused that they even kill themselves.
And after all, all that enjoying is at least based on the suffering of many. So its really selfish and without any resepect of anything to think in this way.
Only in a tradition that teaches that one can gratuitously throw away this life in exchange for another would a person reason to wantonly kill themselves.

It is also mistaken to think that teaching of one life only or "sin" to suicide stops people from doing such, but it certainly is not something to encourage. A look around here will find my attitude of suicide, and I will be willing to bet you are mistaken in your first assumption of what I think. I will not expand on the subject here as it will derail the thread.

And seeing Steve Pames "like", how much gratitude does a devoted to Jesus have, if all that he/she can do is simply enjoying past merits and paths others did with their blood for you.
Ah! You have issue with Jesus...now I understand. Nevermind his teachings were often, I would say mostly, in agreement with the Buddha, among others. We had that discussion years ago as well.

Think! Such attitude is really foolish, lacks of gratitude in any aspect and assumes that all is here for one to consume. No depts no sacrify no father and mother... terrible down leading wrong view.

It can never be called a person of faith, thinking in consumers way. And given, that nothing comes from nothing, how much gratitude does one have in regard of him self, thinking on how many sacrifies have been done by one to become a "pet" for a short time.

There is no food for the sense that does not cause death... but making people believe that one respects animals and all beings, while enjoying them at the same time.

Do you eat? Do you drink? Do you sleep? Do you poop and pee? Do you wear clothing? Do you take refuge in a shelter? Do you use electricity? Who pays for these things on your behalf?

Chop wood, carry water. You are subject to your animal nature.

"It might be, that there will be no more chance aside this", is actually wise, but guessing one has already found anything, one would not take it.
Or rather I could say the same for you... :D
 
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There are mods of live for a higher than to enjoy sensual pleasures, but just to maintain the body further. This mode of live depends on what is given and not what might be desired and in such way one does not cause other being suffering by maintaining the body, to be able to use the four nessesarities, food, cloth, dwelling and medicine, Juantoo. This mode of life is called Brahmacariya or holly life. But that all leads much astray of the topic if explained in detail, maybe. So in short, its possible. And even as a householder one could live a live that does not harm so many others heedless and selfish enjoying while this giving food to sensuallity bounds one to brith and becoming (note: birth and death, the chain of depending co-arising, is something that goes on all the time). For one not able to detache from sense lust, its needed to amass by ones own effort, without using others, in a rightouse way of livelihood, to maintain a good conscience, subtile or platant.
And for the case, just here to enjoy, who gave one such that their would be no such as, even if subtil, remorse or bad conscience, latest when one faces the sufferibg one has caused, causes.

Such ideas really have nothing to do with faith on a level of personal development and can be rightous called pets faith.

Since it seems to be a proper time to losen the tention of the question, life after or not:

http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than_en.html said:
To the Kalamas ...
"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of greed, devoid of ill will, undeluded, alert, & resolute — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with good will. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with compassion. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with compassion: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with appreciation. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with appreciation: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"He keeps pervading the first direction — as well as the second direction, the third, & the fourth — with an awareness imbued with equanimity. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with equanimity: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.

"Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:

"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.

"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.

"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.

"One who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires these four assurances in the here-&-now."
 
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There are mod(e)s of li(f)e for a higher (?, plane of existence? level of consciousness?) than to enjoy sensual pleasures, but just to maintain the body further.
At no time will you ever find me encouraging hedonistic surrender to pleasure as a way of life. Likewise, brutal austerity is not a wise road either, in my view.

"We missed the 'R.' The word was 'celebrate!'"

This mode of live depends on what is given and not what might be desired and in such way one does not cause other being suffering by maintaining the body, to be able to use the four nessesarities, food, cloth, dwelling and medicine, Juantoo. This mode of life is called Brahmacariya or holly life. But that all leads much astray of the topic if explained in detail, maybe.
Not everyone has the luxury of living the life of a holy man. It is certainly nice if one can afford the luxury, or if someone is fortunate enough to have others contribute to his well-being so he has the luxury of pursuing *only* those holy things. (I take similar umbrage with those leaders of my faith as well)

But if a person is born into poverty and must work to earn his food, clothing and shelter, then he cannot continuously pursue holy matters and is subject to "rebirth" only because of the caste into which he was born. Seems rather deterministic to me, not a soul on the planet has any opportunity to grow spiritually, they are hamstrung by their social status. So just kill yourself and spin the roulette wheel and see if you hit the jackpot this next time around....

So, if what I *know* isn't going to elevate me any higher than where I already am, I am doomed to repeat what I've already done no matter what other teachings I bring into my practice...why bother? Learning such esoteric so-called wisdom serves only to promote the religious elite and does nothing to help my spirit grow, except a vague promise of "next life."

So in short, its possible.
I have no doubt it is possible. That was never a doubt in my mind. I simply fail to understand any potential benefit to myself, or to any other humans that strive to elevate their spirits.

And even as a householder one could live a li(f)e that does not harm so many others heedless and selfish enjoying while this giving food to sensuallity bounds one to b(ir)th and becoming
So, "American" means selfish, harmful, and hedonistic. Might as well throw in rude, antagonistic spoiled brats.

Yet who donates more food to feed the hungry *around the world!* Who supplies more medicines to fight disease *around the world!*

I am well aware of the shortcomings of my culture and my society and my nation. We are not saints. Neither are we the devils so many want us to be in order to justify their own shortcomings.

(note: birth and death, the chain of depending co-arising, is something that goes on all the time).
Life is continually created, I agree. Does that life *re-create?* I respectfully disagree. I have no experience that indicates anything even remotely close.

For one not able to detache from sense lust, its needed to amass by ones own effort, without using others, in a rightouse way of livelihood, to maintain a good conscience, subtle or (platant?).
My grandfather taught me to live my life in such a way that I can sleep with my conscience. I do not intentionally go out of my way to harm anyone, likewise I don't back down from a fight either, most especially a fight that involves my spirit.

When I teach, I encourage students to ask questions. How else will they learn? The subject matter has to come to the student in a manner and at a time they can understand, when they are ready. Otherwise it is all wasted effort.

And for the case, just here to enjoy, who gave one such that their would be no such as, even if subtil, remorse or bad conscience, latest when one faces the sufferibg one has caused, causes.
I'm trying to understand but the grammar is so broken as to make this very difficult.

Such ideas really have nothing to do with faith on a le(v)el of personal development and can be (right(e)ous called pets faith?).
Do I agree there are those in the world who give mere lip service to their faith doctrine? Absolutely.

I would think our discussion would prove I am not one of them.

Besides, what personal development, if a person has to come back and do it all again anyway?

I keep coming back in my mind to the lesson I've taught for many years now:

It is not what you know...it is what you *do* with what you know.
 
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Samana Johann

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Looks like my person is not able to pull it back to general away from "I" and "you", so Atma tries to answer personaly

At no time will you ever find me encouraging hedonistic surrender to pleasure as a way of life. Likewise, brutal austerity is not a wise road either, in my view.

"We missed the 'R.' The word was 'celebrate!'"

Sadhu, very good view. It's called the middle way but since that is often missused as excuse as well here maybe some useful explaining: The Middles of the Middle Way

Sadhu for the patient with Atmas bad language.

Not everyone has the luxury of living the life of a holy man. It is certainly nice if one can afford the luxury, or if someone is fortunate enough to have others contribute to his well-being so he has the luxury of pursuing *only* those holy things. (I take similar umbrage with those leaders of my faith as well)

But if a person is born into poverty and must work to earn his food, clothing and shelter, then he cannot continuously pursue holy matters and is subject to "rebirth" only because of the caste into which he was born. Seems rather deterministic to me, not a soul on the planet has any opportunity to grow spiritually, they are hamstrung by their social status. So just kill yourself and spin the roulette wheel and see if you hit the jackpot this next time around....
The holy life can be lived just as a begger, its not possible to live the holly life as a lord or rich householder using others. The holly life does not depend on cast, on birth at all and one refraining from harm and not living for sensual pleasure is wothy of gifts. Kings an outcasts walked this way. To do is just a matter of vision and will.

So, if what I *know* isn't going to elevate me any higher than where I already am, I am doomed to repeat what I've already done no matter what other teachings I bring into my practice...why bother?
IF know. For now just know the pleasure of sensuallity and so mind takes bith again and again in this world. To know a different, one needs to try the different. Otherwise one stays doomedand believes that things are just to bear as they are.

Learning such esoteric so-called wisdom serves only to promote the religious elite and does nothing to help myspirit grow, except a vague promise of "next life."
There is nothing esoteric. Or does Joantoo believes that people take birth poor or rich by accident or because of the mood of a higher "dont know what"?

For people teaching peoples to just make offerings but not teaching a way beyound such, indeed, such servesjust the "Brahmans".

I have no doubt it is possible. That was never a doubt in my mind. I simply fail to understand any potential benefit to myself, or to any other humans that strive to elevate their spirits.
Beings depend on. So what ever comes into be does not only be subject to decay but also causes, nourishes on death and suffering of others.

Life is continually created, I agree. Does that life *re-create?* I respectfully disagree. I have no experience that indicates anything even remotely close.
Good observation of anatta, not-self. Every moment a different, no heartwood can be found in form, feeling, perception, formation and consciousness (eg a being)
So just to make clear: rebirth does not mean reincanation of an inherent personality.

So, "American" means selfish, harmful, and hedonistic. Might as well throw in rude, antagonistic spoiled brats.

Yet who donates more food to feed the hungry *around the world!* Who supplies more medicines to fight disease *around the world!*
"Compassion" without wisdom causes much suffering. Which county leads the most wars, wasts the most resources, does not care about enviroment and anicent ethic at all, has build up its welfare on third world and slaves? Taking and giving more intensively just causes more heat. That is why taking from one side to give to the other never helped anybody but is just used to justify ones good livelihood using the Robin Hood image.

Of course America, or better leading people, has a big share on setting the wheel of lasting global darkness, caught in sensuallity deeply, turning faster then ever did, but how ever, the doer receives his gifts and the time of running out of places to just take is not so far away. Soon the results will be seen, stronger as they already do. So it's actually a good global sample, but such is to much, and better focuse on the same ways and systems within the formation that is called self.

My grandfather taught me to live my life in such a way that I can sleep with my conscience. I do not intentionally go out of my way to harm anyone, likewise I don't back down from a fight either, most especially a fight that involves my spirit.
Sadhu. Wise grandfather and wise grandchildren in following his advices. He might not have taught to fight back physically or verbal and even mental if not lead by wholesome mind an intentions of goodwill.

When I teach, I encourage students to ask questions. How else will they learn? The subject matter has to come to the student in a manner and at a time they can understand, when they are ready. Otherwise it is all wasted effort.
Good observation, yes for the ideal case. Sometimes it nessesary to provoke a mind that is fixed on an unwholesome mind object. That can cause some aversive reactions of course so just possible when the "who leads, who follows" situation is clear, eg the student has great respect or love for the teacher.
Not always are non reacions on what one means that it was waste effort really a waste. Sometimes things need to sink in and the "Ahh!" could come years later and sometimes there are others, third persons, not direct infolves, who benefit a lot while the taught has nothing from it.

I'm trying to understand but the grammar is so broken as to make this very difficult.
Christiansoften argue that God allowed them to use other beings and the world for their prosperity how ever they like and that the world is made for them to be just consumed. If having a qualified authority that would have given one, just use it and have fun, there would be maybe no recognizeable remorse.

Do I agree there are those in the world who give mere lip service to their faith doctrine? Absolutely.
There are.
I would think our discussion would prove I am not one of them.
It shows of course good sign that no out of range for a way out and that there have been deeper considerations.
Still, just to stick to a certain believe does not mean that one has already faith in the context of this topic.
Besides, what personal development, if a person has to come back and do it all again anyway?
Does sensual lust and desire for becoming/being come again and again?

I keep coming back in my mind to the lesson I've taught for many years now:

It is not what you know...it is what you *do* with what you know.
I keep coming back in my mind to the lesson I've taught for many years now:

It is not what you know...it is what you *do* with what you know.

Yes, by deed, and not by birth a Brahman can be called Brahman, is by deeds, not by birth, that a Brahman is called, is an outcast. Able to convert you insight?

Maybe its good to reread the OP.
 

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Christiansoften argue that God allowed them to use other beings and the world for their prosperity how ever they like and that the world is made for them to be just consumed. If having a qualified authority that would have given one, just use it and have fun, there would be maybe no recognizeable remorse.
No time at the moment for a complete answer, but since this point is now clearer I will address it.

Yes, I am aware that is an excuse used by *some* Christians, and when I catch it I educate them as well. From the Christian point of view, humans were not created to destroy the Garden, but to tend and nurture the Garden. The word translated as "Dominion" does *not* mean "do as you damn well please." It does mean "to take care of."
 

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The holy life can be lived just as a begger, its not possible to live the holly life as a lord or rich householder using others. The holly life does not depend on cast, on birth at all and one refraining from harm and not living for sensual pleasure is wothy of gifts. Kings an outcasts walked this way. To do is just a matter of vision and will.
Besides vision and will it would also require a great deal of trust and faith. I realize the begging tradition is more normative in the East, but is frowned upon in the West...I believe with good reason. Too many take advantage of the kind heartedness of strangers. I can tell stories of experiences, but it would not be important. In the end it would depend a great deal on motives and intentions.

IF know. For now just know the pleasure of sensuallity and so mind takes bi(r)th again and again in this world. To know a different, one needs to try the different. Otherwise one stays doomed and believes that things are just to bear as they are.
I don't feel like my existence is "doomed." Quite the contrary, with all of my suffering, and I assure it is great, I am blessed.

I am confused though, because later you say: "rebirth does not mean reinca(r)nation of an inherent personality." So if the learning portion of the spirit does not transfer, what point is there to rebirth? I'm sorry, every time I visit the subject I keep returning to how incredible it sounds...just a bit too convenient for the benefit of the rulers. (Not unlike other religions)

There is nothing esoteric. Or does Juantoo believes that people take birth poor or rich by accident or because of the mood of a higher "dont know what"?
It is *all* esoteric, we have no way to *know.* By definition that means esoteric. All claims by all religions that cannot be verified by external sources is esoteric.

Beings depend on. So what ever comes into be does not only be subject to decay but also causes, nourishes on death and suffering of others.
You see this as a bad thing. I see it as the way of nature, the way of the universe, the IS. Life is created, born, lives, becomes diseased, grows old and dies. More life continues.

I am the most ardent opponent of how evolution is currently taught, and the religious methodologies employed to defend it....evolution is only another way for humans to explain and understand the process of life developing. The process is real, it isn't difficult to see all around us. We don't know how to explain the process accurately, but we know the process occurs. As we learn more, we discover what Native Americans have long taught, that *all* life is connected.

To me, this is a good thing. Why would I wish to separate myself from the IS, to which I intuitively know I belong?

Good observation of anatta, not-self.
I am not certain I fully understand in context. I will say, that every struggle I have faced, every crisis of faith I have overcome, every challenge that demands an action...I weigh not only for the good of myself, but for the good (or at least no harm) to others.

What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Do not wish for me, what you do not wish for yourself.

"Compassion" without wisdom causes much suffering.
Compassion without wisdom is better than no compassion at all.

Which count(r)y leads the most wars,
China? Rome? Egypt? India? Oh!, you mean *only* today....

wast(e)s the most resources, does not care about enviro(n)ment and anicent ethic at all, has build up its welfare on third world and slaves?
No slaves in India? Seems to me a whole class of society was denigrated to the level of slaves, or even lower, for over a thousand years. The US is what....241 years old. In my view, you are not in a position to criticize on the subject of slavery, the US did not invent it.

The US has given the world technology. Yes, that is a double edged sword, often it is what the holder does with it, whether it is for good or bad. I have reservations about much technology, but it remains that without our lives all over the world would *not be as good* as they are today. Yes, you can point to exceptions, and my heart goes out to those enduring warfare...but again, warfare has been with humanity since we became human...the US did not invent it. Indeed, I have argued in the past that the very essence of warfare exists in even the most microscopic life, as "eat or be eaten."

Point being...how would your life be now without the internet? Without electricity? Without refrigeration? Without vaccinations? I can go on, for hours.

What has India's venerable and ancient culture given the world in the last two hundred years? Call centers and tea farms. And Mohandas Gandhi. And that's about it.

So much easier to make us the devil, so you look better in your own eyes and not have to face your own failings.

Taking and giving more intensively just causes more heat. That is why taking from one side to give to the other never helped anybody but is just used to justify ones good livelihood using the Robin Hood image.
Don't flatter yourself.

Of course America, or better leading people, has a big share on setting the wheel of lasting global darkness, caught in sensuallity deeply, turning faster then ever did, but how ever, the doer receives his gifts and the time of running out of places to just take is not so far away. Soon the results will be seen, stronger as they already do. So it's actually a good global sample, but such is to much, and better focuse on the same ways and systems within the formation that is called self.
And in India it is OK for young men to gang rape a woman and get away with it, and somehow it becomes her fault...even if she dies because of the attack. But India of course is not "caught in sensuality deeply." That was sarcasm.

You tell me nothing I don't already know about the US. I know we have failings...we are human too. We simply happen to be prosperous enough to share some of our wealth with the rest of the world, and the world ultimately is better for it. It is not without cost, and benefits do need to be carefully considered against consequences, in that we would agree. But the US is not the devil that you seem to believe.

Not always are non reacions on what one means that it was waste effort really a waste. Sometimes things need to sink in and the "Ahh!" could come years later and sometimes there are others, third persons, not direct infolves, who benefit a lot while the taught has nothing from it.
I agree the teacher can only assist with so much towards learning, and often the student doesn't fully grasp until later...if at all.

It shows of course good sign that no out of range for a way out and that there have been deeper considerations.
Still, just to stick to a certain believe does not mean that one has already faith in the context of this topic.
I think there is still some grammatical confusion on my part. The OP stated faith as a verb, a behavior. That is how I have used that word to this point in the conversation. Now I'm beginning to believe you are using faith as a noun, referring to the various religious faiths.

You presume my faith is Christian, and that would be mostly accurate. My heritage includes a large part of Native American blood, from my father's father's father's father's side...in other words, my family name. I have an affinity with nature since I was a child, that cannot be taught. But I have experienced it. Unlike what you teach here, which is alien to me.

Does sensual lust and desire for becoming/being come again and again?
I don't understand your question. Do you deny the role of physical love between two consenting adults? I ask particularly considering a bonded pair mated for life?

Yes, by deed, and not by birth a Brahman can be called Brahman, is by deeds, not by birth, that a Brahman is called, is an outcast.
How many times has this happened in Indian history? Particularly during the caste era? Specifically, how many times has an untouchable become an accepted Brahman?
 
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No time at the moment for a complete answer, but since this point is now clearer I will address it.

Yes, I am aware that is an excuse used by *some* Christians, and when I catch it I educate them as well. From the Christian point of view, humans were not created to destroy the Garden, but to tend and nurture the Garden. The word translated as "Dominion" does *not* mean "do as you damn well please." It does mean "to take care of."
Aside of some pets, beings are really not angry if they even do not see humas from far and there are nearly no who benefit from them,aside of the most hated by humans like mosquitoes, flys... Gras grows also well without them, so if just practicing metta (goodwill) it would be fine.
Atma knows just one teacher who does not teach a kind of cast systemto justify unethical behaviour and mod of life.
 

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Besides vision and will it would also require a great deal of trust and faith. I realize the begging tradition is more normative in the East, but is frowned upon in the West...I believe with good reason. Too many take advantage of the kind heartedness of strangers. I can tell stories of experiences, but it would not be important. In the end it would depend a great deal on motives and intentions.
In the west and modern world generosity, giving without seeking reward is not really known. Thinking in ways of right and not in ways of gratitude, people at lage are guided in wrong view. Three things are praised by the wise: respecting and care for ones parents, generosity and going fourth (eg renounce). All of what "Brahmans" do not see much value in it and furthermore people at lage look for something that might be called objective justice and dont focus on own skills.
Yes Juantoo, this world is very dark and there are less places where right view still domains. How ever, what a single person does that he meets. My self living this mod where not one believes that such is possible in this country.

And yes, without strong faith, conviction, one is not able to go beyound but like the wise told: If it would be not possible, it would not have been taught, but because it is possible, it was taught. A blaimless mod of live and the possibility to concentrate without remorse to an extend that allows one not only to maintain one self with some amount of pleasure but also to penetrate phenomenasand see how they actually really are. To see the truth for one self.

I don't feel like my existence is "doomed." Quite the contrary, with all of my suffering, and I assure it is great, I am blessed.
Atma did not say otherwise, just: "dont just waste your merits". There is no more danger for rich people as to think that they are born as such, will always live as such and there wealth will never find an end. Then facing in the next moment things they had not encountered, never thought of them, when results of deeds bear their fruits, they might be no more able to move. There is a nice story of three prisoners, maybe Atma can post them later.

I am confused though, because later you say: "rebirth does not mean reinca(r)nation of an inherent personality." So if the learning portion of the spirit does not transfer, what point is there to rebirth? I'm sorry, every time I visit the subject I keep returning to how incredible it sounds...just a bit too convenient for the benefit of the rulers. (Not unlike other religions)
Since the "rulers" in this case do in no way depend on their taught and are even already free of desire, ill-will and ignorance, such danger does not exist. They do not ask you for anything. In regard of what gets reborn, in short avijja (ignorance) but its good to make a seperate topic for this big missunderstanding.

It is *all* esoteric, we have no way to *know.* By definition that means esoteric. All claims by all religions that cannot be verified by external sources is esoteric.
In that way your belive that there is a coke in the refrigerator is esoteric as well. Things can be proved and be seen by the wise for them selves, there is no amount of doubt or just believe left if put into practice and furthermore can be reasonable argued. There are no hidden secrets in this certain teaching. Nothing comes from nothing can be suddenly provend by one self. Nothing exists out of it self can be proved suddenly by one self. Nothing is lasting can be proved buy one self. No inherent identity can be found can be proved by one self. That deeds are caused by will can be proved by one self. And that one would not be hear if he did not like to (be)come, can also be proved by one self. That any volution leads to effects can be proved by one self. So its somehow strange to believe to come from nothing and go to nothing. And that deeds form tendencies, habits and those form character can be proved by one self. So its actually easy to count one and one by just cutting away what is not true.

You see this as a bad thing. I see it as the way of nature, the way of the universe, the IS. Life is created, born, lives, becomes diseased, grows old and dies. More life continues.
Spoken honest, one loves to take it as excuse that other need to suffer for ones nurishment. What a sadistic creation, creator if such could be blamed. Beings cause their being. If not personal causing suffering, such view of the world as it is and live out what remains is well but still desire for becoming and sensuality, it rendered lipservice and artificial satisfaction like the soldier says I have no other chance which is not right and he will not be free of guilty (eg he will face the fruits of his deeds).

[Nearly 8. Atma will now make his alms round and make a break here, trusting that it does not look impolite. Coming back here, how ever is not for sure, but if conditions are still here, continuing a little bit later. Juantoo.]
 

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Besides vision and will it would also require a great deal of trust and faith. I realize the begging tradition is more normative in the East, but is frowned upon in the West...I believe with good reason. Too many take advantage of the kind heartedness of strangers. I can tell stories of experiences, but it would not be important. In the end it would depend a great deal on motives and intentions.
My experience is that my thumb asks all the questions... Ive hitched all over this country not as popular as.it used to be, but the people who pick people up are as good as they've always been. And couchsurfing is a ball.
 

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In the west and modern world generosity, giving without seeking reward is not really known.
I think this is a pretty narrow view that may highlight the news headlines that like to focus on the bad, but I see daily examples (in my part of the west) of people being generous with their time, money, and health to help others with no thought of reward.
 

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I think this is a pretty narrow view that may highlight the news headlines that like to focus on the bad, but I see daily examples (in my part of the west) of people being generous with their time, money, and health to help others with no thought of reward.
Steve, as one not ony exercised giving everyting, focused exclusivelly in generosity without thinking on gain or maintain something for one self, tillincl. the last coth and as one now who totally depents on the goodness of others, Atma can tell you that real generousity is very very seldom. It would be merely narrow to say that modern or western people are generous because there are still some. Off cause there is still an amount in regard of the first four of five proper occasions for giving. Still there is giving in times of starvation, in times of sickness, lesser there is giving if somebody arrives and giving when somebody is leaving but next to nothing there is giving the best fruits to the virtuous.
People would give for errecting something that gives them something back. They would give for certain art projects, for example, but nearly ever for people who abstain from taking what is not given and lead a virtuos life. They might give to what they are attached to, the more worse the more they tend to, the more noble the lesser. Nearly nobody is taught of what generosity means, and where gifts bear real good fruits. Most of what is called generosity is actually a real huge industry which would collaps when they start to lack on the so called needed.
Ask your self, how many have offered time skill or material things to provide for example this place here? When Atma thinks that a good server place for such a page cost about 100$ a year and how actally wealth all those people are who use it, even a student could effort 8$ a month, one can see clearly how poor in regard of generosity people are in western world. They are taught how to gain since they meet school but whould never ask the teacher if he might lack anything, because they are taught to have rights and not that everything they have, what ever skill, talent, food clothes, their body... have been actions of goodness, nobody would have to give one anything. And yes, especially Christians are famous to catch poor with their greed and need. So there is less help that says just take it and make with it what ever you are fit, but to reac certain aims, mostly very low and very strategic. Most effectiv is give them weapons (tools to conquere) and alcohol (sensual dependency) and you can lay down and just need to wait.
Don't get Atma wrong. Its actually always a personal matter and never one of nationality, religion, east or west, but stategical giving for certain aims, even it is just to be not annoyed seeing poorness, sick or death, has long tradition already and there are even areas which do not tolerate living on thatwhat is given at all. To be that generouse to abstain from taking or renounce at first place, such is totally unknown and not really even respected. "For wat would be my benefit? When I give to the poor and educate them, at least I would have good and oblicated worker and can use them for my future material prosperity. What would be the benefit to nurish somebody or something that does not fill our begs or even praise the abstaining from consuming. Its better to invest for functioning Consumer so that their serve society. So how much generosity has a student, aside of organised, received? And having not really seen and get known goodness one not easily develops generosity. People actually feel generous already when they do not claim all the right they could claim.

Its a good topic and generosity would be a good forum since it is the basic of every good religion, better then to have and maintain a "what movie do you watch right now" or other low topic entertainment on generosity. Guessing Steve does his work here total voluntary, he might already know a little of how difficult doing sacrifies actually is, and jet its still in a sphere he canenjoy certain pleasure out of it at the same time.

Unshakeable faith that giving is good, for one who gives gain not only giving as reward but freedom outwardly and inwardly, learns the needed platant lessons to be able to develope furtger on a much more fine level. Giving does not only benefit others but gives a joy, something a person fearing lose and stingy never will have.
Some aspects have been told in the "sacrify" topic.
 

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My experience is that my thumb asks all the questions... Ive hitched all over this country not as popular as.it used to be, but the people who pick people up are as good as they've always been. And couchsurfing is a ball.
People with same tendency have meet, meet and will meet each other mostly again and again. When talking general in therms of "just this is right" than one believes that certain birth makes a men. The fact that one mets a different where the general flows like this, shows that deeds and results are very personal but also being born under not so goid conditions has causes by ones previous deeds what does not mean that it is not possible to work on better conditions. Of course, strong believe, confidence is required to walk against the stream.
If one or others are just as good as they have ever been is of course not an indication that things runninger worser, if, but does not show any de-velopment either. Business as usual.
 

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I am the most ardent opponent of how evolution is currently taught, and the religious methodologies employed to defend it....evolution is only another way for humans to explain and understand the process of life developing. The process is real, it isn't difficult to see all around us. We don't know how to explain the process accurately, but we know the process occurs. As we learn more, we discover what Native Americans have long taught, that *all* life is connected.

To me, this is a good thing. Why would I wish to separate myself from the IS, to which I intuitively know I belong?
Beings are the owner of their actions. While one lives in the best outwardly conditions one can possible find just suffering and vici versa.
What ever one nourishes (giving food to identification ond desire) stays real, in dependency, for one. As for for one have cut off the roots of becoming, there is no more interaction and dealing, kamma in this world, its no more his business but simply compassion when deciding to give this or that.

And yes, beings are strong bound to each other need each other to maintain that little welbeing in causing so much suffering to each other at the same time.

Compassion without wisdom is better than no compassion at all.
Actually there is no such as compassion without wisdom, since wisdom is compassion and vici versa. Its broadly most misunderstood and karuna (desrie to help others not com-passion, suffering together) does not give place for such as affection and attachment. Its not possible sunken in mud by one self to help others out. As for the receiver, its better to have wise enemies that foolish friend.

Point being...how would your life be now without the internet? Without electricity? Without refrigeration? Without vaccinations? I can go on, for hours.
Many year living without electricity, without using telefon since a long, without storing food at all, without vaccination, without using vehicel, waring shoes... Atma could go on for hours, very, very well and honest it merely burdensome to get sometimes to possibility to make some shares and use given connection to this realm here using it exclusively to give and share.

Try it. How may tousands of years there have been people living without all that stuff, actually on attached to all of that, how could he/she ever be at peace or even discover reallity?

Its usuall tt people just talk usually meet people which just talk but sometimes we meet, seldom but possible, people who know of what they speak.

Born in a normal (poor) family my person had worked hard, eager and without corruption or using others and gained good running companies and wealth, not having missed anything in regard of pleasure. Once meetinging the three heavenly messagers (sickness, ols age and death) my person quickly loosed drunkeness in health, youth, live and wealth. Driving the most bigges cars with not a little greedy to spend all like gained to "help" increase the heating: Once having seeing bugs smashing on the window and animals die under the wheels with full awarness, my person simply stopped using vehicles to give a little coolness as share. Having seen the effects of refrigerators and that its just greed and fear to desire such, my person had simply stopped to use it. Having seen that to use telefon is like to carry a weapon or to bound one self o the world, my person simply had stoppt to us it, for if there is really a need to meet one, there is no problem to just walk and there are actually really less reasons at all. Having seen that food causes suffering and makes one busy, that one given meal, a plate ful a day is actually enought if not having much desire to build, amass this or that, my person took only one meal. What ever bound my person, what ever keep him in the net of corruption, he simply cut of, step by step till the day taking on the robes and leave home and attachement to the world totaly behind, not holding any right or refugee beside the three Gems.

So once my person naturally met the teachings of the Other Ones it was "just" good to know that other "crazy" people ever exist in this world.

There is a real good and simple teaching that leads direct to the highest goal: Instructions to Rahula at Mango Stone

Thinking on Juantoos respect toward his grandfathers words, he will love it and it can be used where ever one stands.

That all means that things need previous causes. Its not possible to just desire something right now and claim it if not have done the "homework" first. And never developing faith to an amount that one actually starts to work, how could he ever reach even the field not to speak to stark to work on it also on hot days and when it rains?

So much easier to make us the devil, so you look better in your own eyes and not have to face your own failings.
Of cause. No wise would make other devils, but that does not mean that often they feel like if getting told cause and effects. How could your actions ever touch my person? A devil is always inside one self. It might destroy certain hopes that somebody else could get him under control for you.

All your India, US, this defilement and identification against another
There is no sociaty in this world which is not corrupt. So to seek such outside that of the Noble Ones is a waste of time. Atma did not like to inspire to something called papañcā and to nurish: The Arrows of Thinking: Papañca & the path to end conflict


I think there is still some grammatical confusion on my part. The OP stated faith as a verb, a behavior. That is how I have used that word to this point in the conversation. Now I'm beginning to believe you are using faith as a noun, referring to the various religious faiths.
There are no such as nouns. Deeds lead phenomenas come into being. Of course there are different deeds and what the deed faith means Atma wrote in the OP. Its an action, starting mental and manifests till bodily deeds, since it is not possible that a person of faith would do real wrong actions.

You presume my faith is Christian, and that would be mostly accurate. My heritage includes a large part of Native American blood, from my father's father's father's father's side...in other words, my family name. I have an affinity with nature since I was a child, that cannot be taught. But I have experienced it. Unlike what you teach here, which is alien to me.
My person does not presume any and if asked he would say "just a modern person" with a little of everything that fits to personal thoughts and desire. Of course still some small connections to nature are seen.
And its merely normal that those teachings are alien in the world, seldom to meet, and more seldom to start to investigate them and tend to them. Whereas the surface is at least welcoming and acceptable for everyone, the underlying deep deep source is difficult to grasp.

I don'tunderstand your question. Do you deny the role of physical love between two consenting adults? I ask particularly considering a bonded pair mated for life?
Atma simply asked if the desrie for being/becoming and sensuality (form, sound, small, taste, touch, ideas) come again and again after having been gained and died? Has birth come only a little to an endafter having grasped a new after it? Did ever since something last? And having seen that it does not last, was there again the foolish desire to grasp after it again? Once seen the imperfection of things, one stops to grasp after them.

So let Atma explain ("lucky") birth as the reason the condition for liberation, let Atma explain faith as the reason for letting the burden, the yoke behind.

Read/listen carefully and pay close attention, Juantoo:

http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.than_en.html said:
Upanisa Sutta: Prerequisites

translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
d 1997-2014
Alternate translations: Bodhi | Walshe
Alternate format:
- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -
Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way.

"The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance, it should be said.

"Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction (e.g. virtue) has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.

"Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big lakes are full, they fill the little rivers. When the little rivers are full, they fill the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean. In the same way:

"Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite."
 
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juantoo3

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I think this is a pretty narrow view that may highlight the news headlines that like to focus on the bad, but I see daily examples (in my part of the west) of people being generous with their time, money, and health to help others with no thought of reward.
You beat me to it, that is very close to what I wanted to say.
 

juantoo3

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After our lengthy conversation, I think on the big issues we are mostly in agreement (as I would expect). Where I see our differences, it is primarily in the details.

Actually there is no such as compassion without wisdom, since wisdom is compassion and vici versa. Its broadly most misunderstood and karuna (desrie to help others not com-passion, suffering together) does not give place for such as affection and attachment. Its not possible sunken in mud by one self to help others out. As for the receiver, its better to have wise enemies that foolish friend.
Did you not say: "'Compassion' without wisdom causes much suffering"? My response that brought the current reply was to this earlier statement you made. To my understanding, compassion and wisdom are entirely different emotive responses, which is now what you seem to suggest, where before you seemed to me to imply the two were necessarily tied together. I hope you understand my confusion of what you are trying to say here?

Many year living without electricity, without using telefon since a long, without storing food at all, without vaccination, without using vehicel, waring shoes... Atma could go on for hours, very, very well and honest it merely burdensome to get sometimes to possibility to make some shares and use given connection to this realm here using it exclusively to give and share.

Try it. How may tousands of years there have been people living without all that stuff, actually on attached to all of that, how could he/she ever be at peace or even discover reallity?
I have. I have lived before with minimal material requirements. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, but apart from being seriously inconvenienced, it made seeking or keeping employment so I could earn money to pay for food and other animal necessities (heat, clothing, toiletries, etc) EXTREMELY difficult.

I do appreciate the sentiment...impact the environment in a minimal manner, leave the smallest footprint where you walk as possible. I get that. I also understand that *all* animals, all living things impact their environment. Humans are bad about impacting more than their share, I understand. But there is no way to eliminate that impact. With every breath I take, I kill countless thousands of microbial life. The only way to avoid that is to stop breathing.

That all means that things need previous causes. Its not possible to just desire something right now and claim it if not have done the "homework" first. And never developing faith to an amount that one actually starts to work, how could he ever reach even the field not to speak to star(t) to work on it also on hot days and when it rains?
Most people never leave the field into which they were born. Those that do, tend to do so when they realize the limitations of that field. Which is why I say: It is not what you know, it is what you do with what you know.

Do you feed the hungry that come to you seeking bread? Do you give water to those thirsty that come to you seeking drink? Do you share wisdom with those *who come to you* seeking your help?

I make a distinction here, and not all persons are able or capable of reaching far afield. I do not have the opportunity or wherewithal to feed a child starving in Africa (and I agree with you that *some* companies set up to prey on the tender hearted do so unrighteously), but I can act within the circle of my influence to help my brothers and sisters that I can. I do take issue with those who go out of their way to *spread* their "wisdom" where it is not requested, and this is again in contradiction of many of my own religious inclination...and this is another matter I discuss with them when the subject arises.

Sharing what one has to help another human in need seems to me a universal creed of all of the major world religions, and most of the minor ones as well.

Of cause. No wise would make other devils, but that does not mean that often they feel like if getting told cause and effects. How could your actions ever touch my person? A devil is always inside one self. It might destroy certain hopes that somebody else could get him under control for you.
Yet people of every religion create devils when it suits them to do so.

There are no such as nouns. Deeds lead phenomenas come into being. Of course there are different deeds and what the deed faith means Atma wrote in the OP. Its an action, starting mental and manifests till bodily deeds, since it is not possible that a person of faith would do real wrong actions.
We will simply have to agree to disagree.

And its merely normal that those teachings are alien in the world, seldom to meet, and more seldom to start to investigate them and tend to them. Whereas the surface is at least welcoming and acceptable for everyone, the underlying deep deep source is difficult to grasp.
Your religion is not alien to me in the sense of "unknown." I know *of* your religion. I would not dare to say I know your religion, as I have not experienced it. From what I've read, and what I've observed here, your religion offers me nothing that confirms, validates or even comes close to what I have personally experienced...therefore it is alien to me.

Peace
 

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In the west and modern world generosity, giving without seeking reward is not really known.
I believe this to be a rather prejudicial point of view.

Thinking in ways of right and not in ways of gratitude, people at lage are guided in wrong view. Three things are praised by the wise: respecting and care for ones parents, generosity and going fourth (eg renounce). All of what "Brahmans" do not see much value in it and furthermore people at lage look for something that might be called objective justice and dont focus on own skills.
There is some degree of merit to what you say, but not sufficient to make an all encompassing statement. It would be similar to me saying that all people who wear turbans ride camels. I would not say that, because I know it is not true...some ride elephants instead.

A blaimless mod of live and the possibility to concentrate without remorse to an extend that allows one not only to maintain one self with some amount of pleasure but also to penetrate phenomenasand see how they actually really are. To see the truth for one self.
If this is so, then I am already practicing a blameless mode of life...although I would never pat myself on the back and congratulate myself with such thoughts. I live my middle road daily, along the path upon which I have been set, in the best manner that I understand to do.

Atma did not say otherwise, just: "dont just waste your merits".
That is reasonable, but I also think it is important to remember that not all people share the same merits. Your merits will be different from mine.

Since the "rulers" in this case do in no way depend on their taught and are even already free of desire, ill-will and ignorance, such danger does not exist. They do not ask you for anything.
I am considerably more skeptical when it comes to leadership within religions. In my experience, this is seldom true.

In that way your belive that there is a coke in the refrigerator is esoteric as well.
Until one opens the door to find it. I wouldn't go looking as I prefer coffee.

The point is that religions as a rule provide us with many "stories" of how to live our lives, and provide a framework of ethics and moral behavior which are extremely valuable in teaching us how to get along with each other, but interspersed between the ethics lessons are stories to be taken on faith, usually with some unprovable promise of reward for obedience. It is the nature of these unprovable promises that make them esoteric...that is, unprovable by outside verification. I believe in heaven. I am not so set in my mind as to say I know what heaven looks like or consists of...I don't know. I have no way to verify. It is possible that what I believe is heaven may well be what you describe...rebirth. But you cannot prove, by outside sources, your belief either....it is esoteric.

Things can be proved and be seen by the wise for them selves, there is no amount of doubt or just believe left if put into practice and furthermore can be reasonable argued.
I have read and listened to many very intelligent people argue very trivial religious things and reach very different conclusions. Ask 5 rabbis and get 6 different answers. I am a logical person. While logic requires reason, reason can also be used for rhetoric. Rhetoric is far more persuasive, and has no requirement to be true.

Spoken honest, one loves to take it as excuse that other need to suffer for ones nurishment. What a sadistic creation, creator if such could be blamed. Beings cause their being. If not personal causing suffering, such view of the world as it is and live out what remains is well but still desire for becoming and sensuality, it rendered lipservice and artificial satisfaction like the soldier says I have no other chance which is not right and he will not be free of guilty (eg he will face the fruits of his deeds).
Whether one wishes to ascribe life to a Creator, or not, it remains that life as we know it consumes other life in order to continue living. It doesn't matter if your personal vision of this finds this issue distasteful, it is simply the way it is.

Let me see if I can find a way to illustrate; gravity holds us to the earth. Let us pretend I don't like gravity, I believe we should be able to float about as we please. I find it offensive that a Creator made gravity. And since I conduct my affairs in this life to the highest caliber of my religion, I should be able to float about as I please.

Of course I will never float about as I please, because my animal nature is subject to the laws of nature, and I will continue to be bound to the earth.

Likewise, life requires life. It doesn't matter if I like the idea, it is the way of nature since the first life consumed another life. We can minimize that impact, to eat as little as possible and still remain healthy...in that I think we would agree, but there is no way to prevent the consumption of life.

I think this does serve as a solemn reminder to give thanks to the spirit of the creature who provided its life for our nourishment. This is easily lost on most while gorging on a triple decker with cheese and a side of fries, and that coke you left in the fridge.
 
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RJM

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Samana Johann, I am interested in continuing to hear you. However I will probably find myself just scanning over lengthy, complex discourses -- not paying the attention your thoughts may properly deserve -- so I ask you please confine to the fewest, plainest words?

I am Christian, but that doesn't mean I have no knowledge of Buddhist/Hindu/Taoist/Sufi/Zorastrian/Jewish/Gnostic/Essene/Steiner, new age -- Kaballah, Upanishads, I Ching, Bhagavad-Gita, Hazrat Inayat Khan, Tarot, wicca --African ancestor religion -- lots of stuff, ok?

I find it all in Proverbs 3: 5-7 in the Bible:

'Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes: fear the Lord and depart from evil.'

Faith.

Do you have anything to add to this passage? I am asking sincerely, and am interested in your interpretation?

:)
 
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