Do we all pray to the same God?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by mystic, May 10, 2017.

  1. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    BUT WHERE DID THIS ORIGINATE?
     
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  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Do you mean the idea of giving something to God? I couldn't answer that. But imo it comes from the idea that because we have free-will, God will not be able to act in our lives without invitation? So by offering something of value of himself to God, the devotee opens the door for God to respond? Necessary the devotee take one step towards God, to allow God to take ten steps towards him?

    Sacrifice/renunciation of the material opens the heart to the spiritual?

    Sacrifice is certainly the core idea of all religions/faiths?
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    We looked at this when I did my degree.

    The idea of sacrifice is so embedded in the human psyche it's almost impossible to define in its range and complexity. Sociologists have no conclusive source or origin, and there are a number of theories. Some hold that sacrifice was not practiced by hunter-gatherer societies, but emerged among settled agrarian communities.

    It is a contract, a gift, a consecration, a giving-up, and giving-over; it can bind, loosen, attract or repel ... and so it goes ...
     
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  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Neither.
     
  6. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Imo Jesus ended all blood sacrifice by sacrificing himself he returned sacrifice to its original principle. He gave himself to God completely, and he let God take over completely. The mystery of the cross can't be explained by logic in a few words. Imo
     
  7. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Young princes used to have a whipping-boy to take their punishment. It's the same deliberate evasion. It's the form, without the meaning?

    Without the true intention, useless. Christ did away with that?

    Sorry, I mistakenly thought bhakajan's question was addressed to me, in response to a post of mine, not wil"s that's why I tried to answer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  8. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    I do not think that Jungle natives would ever ever conceive the notion of "God" unless they were taught it.
     
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  9. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    A citation:

    Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, [3102 BCE] the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, [623 BCE] the son of Añjanā, in the province of Gayā, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist.


    Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal-killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal-killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him.

    Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. People claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas are not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gītā a comment has been made on such foolish scholars (avipaścitaḥ). The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the Bhagavad-gītā (15.15), vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ: the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relation between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life or going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is thereby checked.

    To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal-killing. The animal-killers are dangerous elements on the path going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal-killers. The soul is also sometimes called the "animal" or the living being. Therefore, both the slaughterer of animals and those who have lost their identity of soul are animal-killers.

    Mahārāja Parīkṣit said that only the animal-killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated to the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal-killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal-killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyāsīs have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga who preach animal-killing under the garb of the Vedas. The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal-killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal-killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order to save people from the vice of animal-killing as well as to save the poor animals from the slaughtering process of their big brothers who clamor for universal brotherhood, peace, justice and equity. There is no justice when there is animal-killing. Lord Buddha wanted to stop it completely, and therefore his cult of ahiḿsā was propagated not only in India but also outside the country.

    Technically Lord Buddha's philosophy is called atheistic because there is no acceptance of the Supreme Lord and because that system of philosophy denied the authority of the Vedas. But that is an act of camouflage by the Lord. Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Godhead. As such, he is the original propounder of Vedic knowledge. He therefore cannot reject Vedic philosophy.

    But he rejected it outwardly because the sura-dviṣa, or the demons who are always envious of the devotees of Godhead, try to support cow-killing or animal-killing from the pages of the Vedas, and this is now being done by the modernized sannyāsīs. Lord Buddha had to reject the authority of the Vedas altogether. This is simply technical, and had it not been so he would not have been so accepted as the incarnation of Godhead. Nor would he have been worshiped in the transcendental songs of the poet Jayadeva, who is a Vaiṣṇava ācārya. Lord Buddha preached the preliminary principles of the Vedas in a manner suitable for the time being (and so also did Śańkarācārya) to establish the authority of the Vedas. Therefore both Lord Buddha and Ācārya Śańkara paved the path of theism, and Vaiṣṇava ācāryas, specifically Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, led the people on the path towards a realization of going back to Godhead.

    We are glad that people are taking interest in the nonviolent movement of Lord Buddha. But will they take the matter very seriously and close the animal slaughterhouses altogether? If not, there is no meaning to the ahiḿsā cult.

    Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam was composed just prior to the beginning of the age of Kali (about five thousand years ago), and Lord Buddha appeared about twenty-six hundred years ago. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Lord Buddha is foretold. Such is the authority of this clear scripture. There are many such prophecies, and they are being fulfilled one after another. They will indicate the positive standing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates.

    http://www.vedas.org.ls/sb/1/3/24.htm

    Bhaktajan's NOTE:
    Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu.
    Brahmins knew how to do various "animal sacrifices" ---both to garner a desired result and more importantly, to show their prowess to the Administrative Warrior caste [Ksatriyas].
    When the Brahmin caste dis-intergrated the idea lingered amongst the common lower castes who tried to emulate this Brahminical prowess.
     
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  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    True...around the world "jungle natives" came up with gods...of many varieties all on their own.

    It did take us a few thousand years of ' civilization' to narrow it down to one.
     
  11. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    How about American Indians? The Great Spirit? Africans? Bushmen? Every tribe had a higher being god/gods -- they saw the sun and moon, the seasons, thunder and lightning and wind -- it came from somewhere they could not fathom. They prayed/sacrificed/danced for rain, or good hunting, etc?

    (Sorry I posted this reply before seeing your longer post)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  12. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Yes. This is what I am referring to.

    On one hand I "presume" this:
    Man is so ego-centric that they think they will live for ever and are lords of all they can survey. And that notions of Higher beings is poetic fancy only. UNLESS there had been a sophisticated source that introduced the idea that a DEITY exists.

    Why would a modern man presume that native Jungle dwellers would philosophize that A PERSONAL GOD looks over them.
    History is filled with roving hordes seizing things for their immediate gratification of wealth, distinction, fame and adoration.
    History is filled with formations of Monestaries too ---but this points to my presumption--- the knowledge is imparted from above not from within one's mind, esp natives.
     
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  13. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    OTOH,

    I have posted that the idea of Theistic Theism is that "God is a Person" [Thus, all-attractive due to being the source of all 'Personal' opulences] is due to the common factor that there is ALWAYS a person behind the scenes, in all circumstance [ergo, Vedic Demigods are known as 'superintendents' of Cosmic Affairs, Sun-god, water God, et al]:

    There is a always a personality behind the scene:
    "The God is a Person Principle"
    (or "Why Atheistic Philosophers can't deny that there is always a personality behind the scene"):

    Q. Who is the personification of the American Dollar Bill?
    A. George Washington.

    Q. Who is the Living Personification of the American Dollar Bill?
    A. Donald Trump.

    Q. Who is the personification of the State of New York'?
    A. The Governor (Mr Cuomo)

    Q. Who is the personification of one of the many regional Counties of New York State?
    A. The County Executive.

    Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Congressional Districts of New York State?
    A. The Congressman/State Representative.

    Q. Who is the personification of New York City?
    A. The Mayor (Mr Balasio).

    Q. Who is the personification of one of the many Districts of New York City?
    A. The Councilman/Ombudsman.

    Q. Who is the personification of any 'Block and Lot' tax-parcel of land?
    A. The title barer (The Land owner).

    Q. Who is the personification of the any Apartment building?
    A. "The Landlord".

    Q. Who is the personification of any apartment?
    A. The tenant.

    Q. Who is the personification of the room with the football and the many toy Trains?
    A. One of the male children.

    Q. Who is the personification of nursery room?
    A. The Baby.

    The point of my illustration is:
    "Without the presence of the persona, all paraphernalia is without meaning nor purpose for existing"
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    So, one can surmise the idea that the Supreme Personality of (A) Godhead = a Grand Controlling Personage.
     
  14. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    This is what I am saying they DID NOT DO on their own.
     
  15. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Ha ha!

    Again, I repeat WE DID NOT DO THIS on our own. We where facilitated.

    AND,

    Every present day Muslim Country DID NOT DO THIS on their own.

    No born again Eskimo became a Christian on their own.
     
  16. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Thank you for explaining this about the Lord Buddha' s attitude to the Vedas requiring animal sacrifice. I don't see how anyone could disagree or find fault with this teaching, imo. For me it's another demonstration of how if we're sincere we all link-up and agree. It's the few who look for the dispute?
     
  17. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Oh, CHRISTIAN? Why didn't you just come out and say it from the start? But you've already been explaining that Lord Buddha was battling the Vedas on animal sacrifice long before Jesus? It's all too clunky. I actually can't be bothered anymore ...
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    but they did... all over africa, asia and the americas people came up with gods on their own...

    do you ascribe it to aliens?
     
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  19. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Sorry, it's not your fault. Just frustrated with web-engine storing then sending my edits as separate posts etc!!! To erase I have to sit on the backspace button for half an hour on my phone while it scrolls up. Not funny, after a long day ...

    I understand you're not railing only against Christian missionaries. I look forward to reading your posts more carefully, now the web has settled down a bit (in my internet challenged corner of the 6th richest country on earth) ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
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  20. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    So you're talking about a personal god? Like a guardian angel, say?
     

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