Is this Hypocrisy in our Society?

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Arif Ghamiq, May 29, 2018.

  1. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    The media and the knee jerk reaction of the liberal left are the ones who quickly labeled Roseanne's remarks raciest, but her comments actually had more to do with Valerie Jarrett's politics than anything else.

    The Muslim Brotherhood seen as an extremest organization and The Planet of the Apes epic of 1968 being about astronauts landing on a planet, (which is actually Earth of the future) where they, (humans) are the devalued species subject to the political structure and class system of the much evolved simians who now rule.

    So it is the media and the liberal left that have likened Valerie Jarrett and Muslims to apes, not Roseanne Barr. Everyone else just ran with it. Jumping on the bandwagon as it were. The way I see it, Roseanne is guilty perhaps of using a poor choice of words, but not racism.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol, well that is the faux news view if the woman that intentionally butchered the national anthem before a baseball game then grabbed her crotch and spit on the ground as a finale of her performance... (You know the same news agency that blasted players for protesting the racist methods in our police and justice system which are proven to arrest, convict, sentence longer and kill more people of color than whites)

    Yes hypocrisy reigns!!
     
  3. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Yes it does - this situation is no exception

    Hypocrisy doesn't just come from one side
     
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  4. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Yet another example of Roseanne's brand of humor. Misconstrued then in the media as it is now, when all she was doing was poking fun at the often dreadful performances of our National Anthem at sporting events and the way ball players often conduct themselves on the field.
    Now, here's a great example of hypocrisy at work. Football players take a knee during the Anthem, they're exercising their right to protest. Rosanne butchers the Anthem as a joke, she's disrespecting the flag...:rolleyes:
     
  5. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    This is the oddest place to take a stand. Of all the things to defend. "The Liberal left"? Try turning on Fox, most of the people there condemn her statements. Roseanne even tweeted that her comment was indefensible, she asked people not to defend her comment.

    You two are so afraid of appearing racist that you are twisting things beyond recognition. It's ok, you have some racist tendencies, most of us do, you need to accept that. Comparing a black person to apes is never ok, and it is explicitly racist. They may or may not reflect her views, but we are not condemning her for her views, we are condemning her for the comments she made.

    Arif Ghamiq, you are a bit racist at times. It's ok, you can be better if you want to, if you accept your faults.
    Namaste Jesus, you are also a bit racist. It's fine, you are super old, racism was a different thing when you grew up. We have learner some things since then, you should have a listen.
     
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  6. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Yup. Like I said, everybody's jumping on the bandwagon. Me, I think for myself.
    I would agree, but that's not what took place here, only the way it was perceived. Rosanne was comparing the politics of VJ to that of the characters in the movie, not their species. I'm not defending her comments at all. It was a dumb thing to say, not very well thought out. I'm only trying to explain what I believe was actually meant by them.

    Oh, and I'll be sure to warn my very dark skinned Indian wife and all of my in-laws just how raciest I am, as well as everyone in the predominantly black community we live in....;)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  7. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I'm certainly not defending Rosanne's statements, I've made that clear (I actually don't like her) and the Far Right is Far Wrong more often than not, but I feel the same about the Far Left - that's what seems wrong to a lot of people here.

    I've never had a weight problem, but my little Sister did since childhood (still does) and to sit in the living room with her and hear some comedian spit out "fat jokes" about some actor or politician is just as hurtful to her as Rosanne's statement are to people who may feel they look like Valerie Jarret, which is something Rosanne should consider, having had the same struggle herself. But mostly people don't see it that way, it's not such a big deal - and that's a hypocritical double standard to me - unfair & insensitive. My Sister is fine, she endured a lot of crap in her school years, but she's not damaged or anything - she's a strong person.

    My Parents raised me with the belief that racism is "un-Godly" and it's always repulsed me, but I don't have any self-hatred either - All forms of racism are repugnant to me. I've listened to a lot of hate speach about Muslims and I do not respond with hate or personal attacks. If it's wrong, it's wrong - not just when it touches specific racial sensitivities.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  8. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I don't know what racist "times" you're referring to Cup - I don't remember even speaking on race here besides this thread, but I may have spoke on it and forgotten. I have been critical of the Israeli Government, but surely you don't interpret that as being racist against Jews?!

    Truth is, I have no close relationships with people of my own race, except my family and the Sister I mentioned in the above post, has three interracial children, whom I love and are no less my family than the rest. I have some co-workers of my own race who are sort of my friends.

    My closest non-family relationships are all Middle Eastern, Southeast Asian and African American - these are my Muslim Brothers & Sisters - whom I love and are closest & most dear to me.

    Your judgement of me is incorrect. I see you used my age as part of your assessment. Perhaps if you look past my age (as I do with race) you will have a different impression - maybe not - it's all good though, your opinion is given honestly & respectfully it seems.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  9. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    I've also informed my Aboriginal daughter-in-law that her opinion of you is totally wrong and that you are in fact a bad seed.:D
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
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  10. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    So now a lot of people are saying Samantha Bee needs to be fired - her show cancelled. I don't think so. Just like I don't think Rosanne should've been cancelled and I don't think Bill Maher's Politically Incorrect should've been cancelled for his comment the week after 9/11.

    I have to say, I liked George Carlin, whereas I don't like Rosanne & Samantha. That may be hypocritical on my part, because George was very offensive and he said a few things I thought he shouldn't, but the difference to me - besides actually being funny - is that his humor was very poignant. His comedic critical analogies were usually very insightful & thought provoking.

    Comedians like Rosanne Barr, Samantha Bee and Michelle Wolf seem to just camouflage their bitterness with hateful un-funny "jokes" about social/political issues. Pointless insults.

    If the comments of these people are greatly disliked by enough people the ratings will go down and they will be cancelled for low ratings - no double standards, no hypocrisy - just business.
     
  11. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    That's more or less how I feel. I was a big fan of George Carlin too when I was young. I never missed him or Jonathan Winters back in the day. Don Rickles was another of my favorites. Somehow his outrageous insults didn't seem as offensive as the things comedians say today or perhaps we weren't as quick to anger over them back then. I wonder how Don's brand of humor would go over today?
     
  12. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I wasn't as big on Don Rickles - sometimes his stuff seemed just a bit too insulting - I liked him some though, but he wasn't on Carlin's level. How he would do today - not as good I think - and it would depend some on whether he was liberal or conservative.
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    We cannot fire someone based on race, creed,.color, sexual preference, nation of origin...etc...but just about everything else is fair game
     
  14. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    I agree. George was what I'd call a philosopher of comedy and Don a more brash in your face comedian.
    That's a good point and I think it's more true today than it once was. Not much middle ground anymore. Everyone's expected to choose sides.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  15. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    So I didn't take any time to clarify being racist and what I don't mean. That was very sloppy of me.
    I personally make the distinction between being racist and being a racist. I don't consider any of you a racist just that you can act/think/feel things that are considered racist from a sociological perspective.
    I don't think that you support slavery or the holocaust. I don't think that you support the murder or deportation
    based on skincolour. I don't think that you hold that white people should rule. I hope this feels a little better at least?
    I struggle to explain racism from a sociological perspective. I have never specifically studied it but have been surrounded by it's discussion for many years. I would say that holding stereotypes about groups of people leads to systemic partiality. That steriotypes are absorbed by all and are very difficult to recognise in ourselves and even harder to link to institutional inequality.
    I checked the Wikipedia on Racism and it's very comprehensive and might be hard to penetrate. 'Social and behavioral sciences' is perhaps most relevant to what I'm trying to point to and I'll add this quote.


    I'll try to link to the first chapter of Racisms an introduction by Steve Garner, I haven't read it but I scrolled through it and seems to start out with things we agree on and goes deeper from there.

    I didn't see this one, this is interesting! I feel like you're making the mistake of putting everyone in the same camp. There are definitely people who could hold these two ideas at the same time but I would say that it's a very small minority. Don't you think it is more likely that people oppose both these acts or, like me, support both these acts?

    Everyone thinks that they think for themselves, being on the opposite side of everyone else is not really a reliable method of ensuring reason and impartiality.

    This is just too silly for me. This could be argued to muddy the water of reasonable doubt. But I can't convince my opposition of this so lets see what we can agree on.
    Comparing darkskinned people to apes has very strong historical connections to racism. Yes?
    There are a large section in society that has no qualms with using the term with it's racist connotations. Yes?
    Privately Roseanne could be part of this section. Yes?
    I'm not trying to trick you here, just finding whatever common ground we share.

    At some point I'm going to have to find out what your definition of racism is because marrying someone with dark skin or "knowing lots of black peoples" doesn't give someone a free pass these days.

    It SEEMED to me like you were softening her statement. I'm wrong at times tho, it happened once a couple of years ago as well. To clarify, my position is that convictions that can be designated as racist (by SJW like me) can be found throughout the right-left, conservative-liberal spectrum. It is just more easily recognised the further right we go.

    I'm glad your sister is ok, some people come out stronger for the trouble they overcome, I think I did.
    I think this is a very relevant point that you have hid in the anecdote! How to relate and react to offensive comments. Most of us take the quick and dirty route when sharing our views by only stating our position on a specific thing without putting it in context or raining in our position with some counter opinions.
    You could easily assume that I, for example, support the cancellation of Rosannes show or that she deserves hate for her comments. But that's not true at all. I want our society to be able to have conversations about these things without locking opinions in a pandoras box. We can't eliminate racism and bigotry, we can't have a zero-tolerances policy and maintain freedom and diversity. Someone is going to open that box sooner or later and we don't know how to deal with what's inside.

    I never wanted to imply that you think racism is a good thing. Only that you might have the experiences to evaluate the nuances of what racism is and explicitly that you neither can nor want to recognice these aspects in yourself. Now if this was a debate it would be very unfair of me because it's inherently impossible to dispute that statement without actually agreeing with me. But this is not a debate, I'm sharing my views, and you will reject them. It is fine.

    No, no. It was a general "we think and act racist at times", I haven't seen anything but your comments here. And I found your discussion with Rosends exemplary.

    Notions on race and ethnicity are shared by all peoples, including negative stereotypes of "our own". These generalizations can cause harmful patterns in society where social structures that rely on human judgement statistically favor some groups over others. Like being more inclined to hire asians as programmers because they are generally good at math.

    I attacked NJs age, I have no idea how old you are, younger then him I would have guessed.
    My judgement could be incorrect, we don't really know though because I doubt I have made clear what I'm actually accusing you of.
    I'm glad that I seem respectful to you at least, I don't always appear that way to other posters. And I assure you that no offense is intended, though offense taken is understandable. This is all academics to me while I try to relate it to you as posters, I don't know how well I succeed.

    Why would it be hypocritical, execution is everything! The three of them work very differently. George crafted performances that tackle difficult issues with humor. Rosanne rejects self censorship. Samantha is actively attacking what she considered the establishment. The fact that she used the C-word means very little to most of us Europeans.
    They are all funny to some people, mostly the people who share their views.

    I don't see the offense Michelle did, given the 'roast' style of the correspondents' dinner. Apparently she made comments on Sarah Sanders appearance which I wouldn't support, but didn't see anything of myself. Interpretation is at work again it seems which makes it hard to bridge the impasse.

    A very simple system, but simple systems are very problematic in such a messy system as reality. Businesses, organizations and government have a relationship with 'the people'. They have policies to adhere to and sometimes not acting is equated to supporting a position. The network could have acted according to it's 'social conscience' but I would guess that it acted to avoid bad press and lose viewers. All business-like.
     
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  16. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Tea, we use the term racist very differently I'm sure, but I actually understood what you meant here. Although, I don't remember if I've ever mentioned my actual age on the forum or how you define 'Super Old' if I did. In any event, it's not that I necessarily disagree with your statement, it's just that it struck me as funny since you don't really know me outside of this forum. Hence my response.

    I was talking to Aussie that night and he must have laughed for an hour when he read it. The next day when I read his reply to my comment to you, I laughed for an hour. Inside joke really. Your comment reminded both of us of the time, back when we were business partners and a Korean actress accused both of us of being raciest for casting her as Chinese in a video we were making.

    Well I'm quite sure it's not as broad as yours. Our upbringing and experiences are no doubt vastly different. Nowadays, just being white often earns one the title of racist here. To me though, racism is denying the rights and privileges of one race in favor of another. Be they white, black or sky blue purple as my mom use to say. For instance, not hiring an applicant because of the color of their skin who is otherwise qualified. By the same token, hiring an applicant who is less qualified than another simply because they fulfill a minority quota. Or, as happened to me when I was a kid, denying a low income white child access to a free summer camp program for disadvantaged youth because, they're not a minority race.

    As far as Roseanne's tweet is concerned, whatever our opinion of the meaning behind it, she has said things like that before. It's just her offbeat brand of humor. Not everyone appreciates that kind of humor and some even take offense, but why all the shock and awe this time? Would it have been better if she had likened VJ to an elderly vampire or a blob as Jimmy Kimmel did Ted Cruz? IMHO, Disney was feeling the heat from their sponsors after the very 1st airing of Rosanne's new show when her character came out in favor of President Trump and was just waiting for an excuse to pull the plug. Top rated show or not, no sponsors, no revenue. I kind of doubt the high ratings would have continued for long anyway once everyone's curiosity was satisfied seeing the old cast again. That was the only appeal for me. The show itself just wasn't that good. Same old, same old. Already talks though, about spinning the show into something else come fall.

    The political undertones here are enormous. Crap rolls down hill though and even Trump haters are getting caught up in it now.... :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  17. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Thanks for your response Cup and the clarity. A lot of good food for thought.

    There is really only one thing I want to add to this thread at this time:

    Let's not forget Lenny Bruce !!!
     
  18. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Well you aren't stupid so I'm not surprised.

    What's with the age thing, it was an old-racist-gram-pa stab. You are both likely older than me so I can get away with calling you old!

    And I don't know you at all, I can only comment on what you write. And the shorthand of what you write is "you" or "NJ". Again, no offense intended, but it is understandable if it is taken.

    I know the story. Being a SJW it made me uncomfortable.

    And do you feel that I'm calling you racist because you're white?

    Yup, super simple logic. It rests on the assumption that if we don't actively work against structural racism hiring will be more merit based than running these programs. "We" reject that assumption and feel that there is more than enough evidence to confirm this.

    Additionally, the sort of program that you describe where unqualified workers are being hired just to fill a quota is counterproductive. I'm not denying that these occur and I don't have any statistics that would show how prevalent the phenomena is, BUT I would like us to step back and consider if this is an accurate description of either the intent of the programs or the only potential for the programs. I think the intent is to give all people with the same merit the same opportunities. Colour of our skin, content of our character and all that good stuff.

    "We" are saying that the current social constructs are keeping groups of people from employment they are qualified for because their name is unusual, or their social demeanor is different from the people we are used to. And yes, their skin might feel a bit too dark. If "we" are right there is a sort of privilege for a group of people, and if we want to even out these wrinkles it's going to negatively impact that group I just called privileged. Which isn't fair at all, but keeping the status quo seems down right evil in comparison! Well that's what "we" think at least.

    It sounds like a sort of defense of her comment, but to me it illustrates how consistent she is. I know I'm contrary here and it's not on purpose. I don't get what makes it offbeat. And I don't think she is bright enough to pick out the nuances of the film as an "epic of 1968 being about astronauts landing on a planet, (which is actually Earth of the future) where they, (humans) are the devalued species subject to the political structure and class system of the much evolved simians who now rule". Jarrett looks like an ape and she's an extremist" seems way more plausible to me (subjective as it is).

    And again, I'm not sorting people into racists and non-racists. Roseanne has absorbed a lot of views in her life and being as uncensored as she is, some of the less appealing associations she has inherited some times rears it's head. I don't think she deserves to lose everything over this. I think it is unquestionably racist and should be called out as such.

    In the media you mean? I can't say, I don't exactly see society as a precision time piece, more like never-ending streams of reacting chemicals. Seeing as society, specifically the us, is getting more and more polarized it isn't hard to see why lines are being drawn more aggressively, on all sides.

    Vampire, very much so! Blob, eeeh, going after the appearance of women is a whole other thing.
    Revenue loss seems very likely to me. In a way, though the process of sponsors pulling out might seem unfair, but the math of Disney as a businesses is fair in it's own way. No judgement, just profits.
     
  19. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    Not at all. I was talking about the way white people are sometimes perceived here in the US. I took your comment to mean that in some ways I seem racially bias to you. Not really true, but going strictly by different posts I've made over the years, I get your point.
    Offbeat - as in unconventional, unusual, eccentric or outlandish.
    Ok, that much I can agree with. That's what I was alluding to in #34 when I said, "Not much middle ground anymore."
    Stands for, Social Justice Warrior? Not sure why that would make you uncomfortable with our story, but rather than hijack this thread, you can shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss it further.;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol, unless it was s joke, FOX.has picked her up.... They are well known to not care about hiring racists...

    Somebody would pick the show up, and hopefully it won't suck as much as it.has so far...she got a ton of viewership.just because of her old.show... She is gonna gain viewership on fox because of what she has been accused of.. And then the bigots will catch some of the other programming and wond
     

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