Lord's Prayer Change

[Thomas]

I believe more in the nature and tenor of he taught how to pray....not word for word dogma of what to pray.

OK. I read it as prayer is an interior practice, and not a public performance to be seen.

That's not to decry Jewish liturgical practice – the Jews gather, at the synagogue and round the table at home, to pray – but rather the 'look how holy I am' kind of performance.

Jesus says: "But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret" (v6) – I've done that in the street, on public transport, in a church, at home, and so on ...

Basically, following the Beatitudes, He's saying 'This is how to pray, and this is what to pray' – and both of those are dogmas, both are truths, both of those are modes of self-discipline.

 

[Thomas]

Christ preached mostly in parables. It is the overall meaning and not the exact use of words that matters.

EDIT: I think there is a reaction to American evangelicals shouting but seldom showing the things Christ said?

Indeed.

I was told this by an older priest who was 'invited' by a young parish priest to visit a parish. During Benediction, at the exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, members of the congregation were throwing themselves on the floor.

"Oh dear," he told us. "This is not the way at all."

He spoke to them afterwards. They explained theirs was an act of reverence before Christ. He explained that this is a church, and Christ is everywhere, all the time, and not 'more present' when the Sacrament is exposed.

They stopped.

 

[Thomas]

Hey Wil —

As a 'nontheistic unitic' who doesn't believe in the Abrahamic God, I'm not quite sure how you relate to the Lord's Prayer anyway?

I would have thought the favoured version would just drop the address to the deity and deal with the humanity:
"When you pray, say, 'give us each day our bread, enough for the day ahead, and forgive us our debts, for we also forgive all who are indebted to us; and do not bring us to trial'."

Although who the prayer is addressed to is a question in itself.

 

[TheLightWithin]

The pope just asked everyone to catch up to Unity...

Charles Fillmore made the change a hundred years ago from "Leave us not" to "Lead us not" figuring our father would not lead us astray..
https://www.dailywire.com/news/3922...2fJT1TydR4CDY3L_YMFvMZn-Cfdeo18GNkk1Dt7KZS-Ac

I can't open the Daily Wire link it seems to have been removed.

However I was always puzzled by the "lead us not" phrase - why would G-d lead someone into temptation?
It actually makes way more sense now that I think about it if the phrase in English were LEAVE us not to temptation.
That just makes more sense.
A request not to be abandoned
Rather than a request to not be led astray.

 

[Thomas]

However I was always puzzled by the "lead us not" phrase - why would G-d lead someone into temptation?
It actually makes way more sense now that I think about it if the phrase in English were LEAVE us not to temptation.
That just makes more sense.
A request not to be abandoned
Rather than a request to not be led astray.

The late Pope Frances approved a change to the Italian translation of the Lord's Prayer in the third edition of the Messale Romano.

It's local to Italy – it does not apply to the whole church.

Curiously, Francis' rationale for approving the change is an explanation of what the text means, and is pretty much the same as that put forward by exegetes such as Tertullian, as mentioned elsewhere.

One might argue that were Catholics to read their Catechisms a little closer, a full and complete explanation is there (paragraphs 2846-2849).

It's a matter of note that the final section of the Catechism – Part 4, Section 2, is dedicated to the Lord's Prayer as "The summary of the whole Gospel" (paras 2759-2865).

I'd say the Early Church and on through to the dawn of modernity, people saw themselves in closer proximity to the spiritual realms than we do today; their vision was more holistic, so they read the text in a different light... but that might be me romancing ...

 

[TheLightWithin]

The late Pope Frances approved a change to the Italian translation of the Lord's Prayer in the third edition of the Messale Romano.

But what is it supposed to say? I guess I'm not getting what was changed to what or why.
But logically it would make more sense "leave us not" I've always been puzzled by the "lead us not" G-d surely has no purpose in leading to temptation?

 

[Thomas]

But what is it supposed to say?

καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
The 'correct', or should that be most direct, English translation is "lead us not into temptation".

I guess I'm not getting what was changed to what or why.

The Italian edition only of the Roman Missal was changed.

The Italian Bishops' Conference made the change to correct a perceived theological misunderstanding. The original wording, "lead us not into temptation" (non ci indurre in tentazione), was seen to imply that God actively tempts people to sin, which is a misconception.

The new translation says "do not abandon us to temptation"or "do not let us fall into temptation" (non abbandonarci alla tentazione).

Apparently the shift was made to acknowledge that God permits temptation, but does not actively lead individuals into it. The rephrasing better reflects this, as for contemporary Italian speakers, the verb indurre can sound coercive or persuasive rather than permissive.

Pope Francis approved the change for the Italian version, but it's not a global change, and other languages, including English, retain the traditional wording.

But logically it would make more sense "leave us not" I've always been puzzled by the "lead us not" G-d surely has no purpose in leading to temptation?

W-e-l-l ... God does allow temptation – Abraham was tested, Job was put under severe duress ...

Mark 1:12-13 "And immediately the Spirit cast him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Accuser, and was with the wild beasts, and the angels ministered to him." (Matthew 4:1–11; Luke 4:1-13).

I would suggest spiritual testing was part of the hero's journey, and furthermore the ANE lived shoulder to shoulder with the spirit world, and the faithful often found themselves tempted.

The Psalms are prayers of the soul, often in praise of HaShem and often petitions against abandonment.

We don't live our faith in quite the 'real world' way they did. Old Nick (English colloquialism) is a lot more savvy these days, he's a tech-bro now.

 

[TheLightWithin]

The original wording, "lead us not into temptation" (non ci indurre in tentazione), was seen to imply that God actively tempts people to sin, which is a misconception.

The new translation says "do not abandon us to temptation"or "do not let us fall into temptation" (non abbandonarci alla tentazione).

Apparently the shift was made to acknowledge that God permits temptation, but does not actively lead individuals into it. The rephrasing better reflects this, as for contemporary Italian speakers, the verb indurre can sound coercive or persuasive rather than permissive.

Pope Francis approved the change for the Italian version, but it's not a global change, and other languages, including English, retain the traditional wording.

In English it implies that too. It makes FAR more sense to say do not abandon us. To tell someone not to lead you into temptation, is something you could say to a lot of people, but not to G-d. It just doesn't make sense to me for G-d to lead you to temptation or for you to have to ask him not to. But it is great to say to an earthly leader.

 

[TheLightWithin]

W-e-l-l ... God does allow temptation – Abraham was tested, Job was put under severe duress ...

Allowing temptation has different implications.
Testing someone has different implications.

 

[TheLightWithin]

being tempted by the Accuser,

Not by G-d

I would suggest spiritual testing was part of the hero's journey, and furthermore the ANE lived shoulder to shoulder with the spirit world, and the faithful often found themselves tempted.

But not by G-d. Would it make more sense to say "lead me away from temptation"

The Psalms are prayers of the soul, often in praise of HaShem and often petitions against abandonment.

Petition against abandonment makes sense. That's what the wording apparently got changed to.
I just can't figure out why the original is what it is.

 

[Thomas]

Allowing temptation has different implications.
Testing someone has different implications.

Yes, and the Ancients saw the difference.

 

[Thomas]

Not by G-d

Exactly.

The text says "lead us not into temptation". Does the Father lead us into temptation? No, clearly not.

I think there may be a point here that the Ancients thought the idea of God leading us into temptation as a silly notion, whereas God, for the modern mind, is a much more nebulous and abstract entity... ncatechism onlinen

But not by G-d. Would it make more sense to say "lead me away from temptation"

As in "but deliver us from evil"?