Why Christians fear Islam

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Faithfulservant, Jan 9, 2005.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol FS!

    I never noticed the dates. I saw it come up in recent discussions and did ponder for a bit how it got so long without me seeing it before...

    But now see that it is!

    So tell me, have your views on the topic changed over the time?

    (oh and a big hug on your gesture to our salty friend)
     
  2. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Yes my views have changed on a lot of things and some have stayed the same altered slightly but still the same.

    Sometimes its uncomfortable when people bump threads like this.. its almost like someones handing you a paper you wrote in 4th grade and critiquing it as if you were in 12th.

    Not fun.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste FS,

    Yes it happens to our public figures all the time doesn't it. The associations they had in the past or the past of the people they associate with.

    But it also allows us to see the learning and growth that has occurred. I look back on my life 30 years ago...and 20 and 10 years ago...and then consider looking back at today 10-20 years hence and thinking...wow I can't believe I was thinking that then...

    None of us are done yet...

    The two lines that I heard quoted from Tony Robbins.

    "We are all doing the best with the knowledge we currently have"

    Which indicates at that time we were doing the best as well...and so when we look at our past rather than judge we say...

    "Well it seemed like a good idea at the time"

    These glimpses of our past, and the knowledge of our past should allow us to be a little more tolerant of others on their path, eh?
     
  4. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    It was anger but not hatred. What am I to think when a religious group use the government and legal system to make war on society and its people? Is it not true that a religion does have a big influence on politics over there?

    Politics is certainly a source of power and that power can be dangerous.

    I don't hate the people. I just hate what they've done with Christ.

    I've recently found an insightful article to explain my own attitude and behaviour:

    I'm just trying to get the pendulum back in the middle.:rolleyes:

    It's one of the reasons why I never agree with anyone on these message boards. Every opinion must be opposed vehemently.
     
  5. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Oh no. My old threads might get bumped in 5 years, too.
     
  6. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

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    An update would be ok.

    It seems that a territorial dispute has something to do with it. Something about Jerusalem. If I recall, when Israel was formed, Palestinians were specifically excluded from it, which evidently factored into their unwillingness to go along with other agreements.
     
  7. ~Believer~

    ~Believer~ New Member

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    there is nothing to fear, what we should fear is the fear itself.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste salty,

    I disagree.
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I'm not a christian and I fear islam :D
     
  10. ~Believer~

    ~Believer~ New Member

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    you are just paranoid thats all.
     
  11. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    They are already here, co-existing peacefully. They are our neighbors and co-workers.

    We need to get over our irrational fears and prejudices... but I'm not holding my breath.


    Islam in the United States

    The number of Muslims in the US is somewhat controversial. The highest, generally-accepted estimate of Muslims (including children) in the United States is 2.35 million (0.6% of the total population). Some sources mention estimates as high as 6-7 million. This would make Islam the second most popular religion in the US after Christianity. Such estimates were accepted by media for some time, but any empirical basis for these higher numbers is not documented.​
     
  12. sooty

    sooty sooty

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    This obviously isn't so much about why Christians fear Muslims but about human instinct - to fear what is not understood. Therefore, most Christians, people from other faiths and non religious people have no problem with Muslims. It is the few that either switch off, or are simply uneducated about difference/other religions that seem to have problems.
     
  13. far-islander

    far-islander New Member

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    why are you afraid?
     
  14. Mahmoud

    Mahmoud New Member

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    If you understood Islam you would not fear.
     
  15. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Salam Faithfulservant

    Thank you for this thread and sorry I didn't notice it before as it's really important and I'd like to offer my 10 cents (well about $50 dollars actually ... it may be a looong post sorry) for what it's worth.

    If I may start with the second paragraph of the lecture/website and ask you to google Al Azhar+The Bill of Legal Punishments and tell me what the first page of the google results tells you.

    On my computer ... given they claim this is the highest authority and has been sent to every mosque in the western world ... the results are all either Christian websites or anti Islam websites. If this is the Islamic last word on punishments don't we think Muslim websites would include this or discuss it or even mention it as a footnote?

    Secondly ... Al Azhar, like all institutions, are famous for coming out with with some excellent fatwas (which are opinions) and also some utter claptrap, like the fatwa about grown men suckling female work colleagues so they can share an office (which strictly speaking is correct because it would negate those two people from marrying but who in their right mind would suggest it as a viable option???) ... oh yeah, I can image lots of Muslim men would allow their wives, sisters or daughters to suckle a grown man so they can work together ... about the same time hell freezes over.

    Thirdly the page suggests this has been sent to all Western mosques requesting them to carry out such punishments ... this goes strictly against the teachings of Islam, so I must question authenticity of this statement. Muslims living in a non-Muslim country must abide by the laws of that country unless they prohibit following the 5 pillars of Islam (belief in One True God, prayers, almsgiving, pilgrimage and fasting) .. so if the UK banned me from going on pilgrimage I, as a Muslim, should either defy that order and go anyway or I should move to a country which does not prohibit pilgrimage ... can't find anything about I must kill the infidels!!!

    Personally as soon as I saw the second paragraph I would stop reading .... but obviously the point is this is being fed to Christian readers as absolute fact and proof of something.

    So the actual body of the lecture claiming apostates should be killed in Islam is correct ... this is agreed by the 4 schools and all Muslims everywhere since Islam began .... if you believe the hype.

    Now let us look at the website of the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa of Al Azhar ... yes the same Al Azhar that the website you linked to claims sent out this Bill of Punishments ... and we find:

    "In fact, it was only two years ago that Sheikh Ali Gomaa made clear statements to the effect that apostasy is not punishable by death in Islam, a position that he holds to this day."

    False Accusations Regarding the Grand Mufti and Sayyid al-Qimni | None | My Website

    I don't think anybody can say he is not an Islamic scholar (although the "death to everyone" mob on the internet will no doubt say it) ... This is his opinion, based on a lifetime of studying Islam so is he high on drugs or a single lone voice in Islam?

    We have numerous scholars in the West who either say there is no penalty for apostasy in this life or that there can only be punishment if the apostasy is coupled with harming the Muslim community ... of course the "death to everyone if they mispronounce the name Mohamed" camp will say leaving Islam harms the Muslim community, this is modern western influence on western scholars who don't really understand Arabic (my hubby has listened to Hamza Yusuf and said it would be impossible to know he is not Arabic without seeing him because his pronounciation is perfect).

    So is this difference of opinion about apostasy a modern phenomenon coming from the west?

    I give you Abu Al-Walid Al-Baji 1013–1081, who was a Maliki jurist ... modern western influence ... I don't think so.

    There are plenty of scholars, both Eastern and Western, who will say it is death for apostates but I am simply trying to demonstrate that the subject is not as cut and dried as most Muslims would have us believe.

    I found a very interesting article, which is a refutation of an article but let's have a look at the topic of apostasy ... clearly both of the authors are not simply laypeople having a random guess:

    Kamali states:

    Indeed, some commentators have drawn the drastic conclusion that the Qur'anic passages which validate holy war (jihad) and fighting against disbelievers actually abrogate the Qur'an's proclamation on tolerance and respect for other religions. [...] In his monograph, The Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, S. A. Rahman looks into the evidence in the Qur'an and the Sunnah in detail, and draws attention to the fact that the Qur'an is silent on the question of death as the punishment for apostasy, despite this subject occurring no less than twenty times in the Holy Book.

    The above opinion is revisionism posing as scholarship.

    Al-Jawhari [4th c.] in Nawadir al-Ijma` said there is ijma` among the Sahaba that the punishment of apostasy by death is meant by the verse of al-Ma'ida 33: {The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom}. This is mentioned in Ibn Qattan's encyclopedia of Ijma`.


    Critique of MH Kamali article 'Freedom of Expression in Islam'

    Personally I find it interesting that the refutation doesn't attempt to address the fact that the Quran mentions apostasy 20 times and yet omits to state any punishment but goes straight into the "it is agreed by ... " argument. Nor does it explain why his own answer includes the words "who make war" ... nope it's just death for going astray!!

    We only have to read recent news about the murder of a Pakistan Muslim who was killed because he was trying to repeal the blasphemy laws to see how difficult it can be to speak out against the accepted interpretations and of course it explains why scholars in the West are more able to offer their opinions on such controversial subjects.

    My own personal view ... look away if you are Muslim and in the death to the infidels camp ... is that this subject is not as cut and dried as many would have us think and that we (Muslims as a whole) are simply following the majority voice from times gone by because descenting voices were simply silenced .. as is still happening today unfortunately, it seems debate is tantamount to herecy. It is far easier to, particularly in a religious context, to take the strictest path because you are not going to be accused of trying to go against God's Will so in fear many who do not agree will at the least keep silent.

    If you still awake after all that ... I found this the other day and think it demonstrates perfectly how we can all be duped by what we read on the internet and it shows how far some people are willing to go to defame other faiths:

    Google Tabari 1:280 and you will see this repeated over and over again on many websites:

    Tabari 1:280 "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."

    Again google Tabari 8:62 or Ishaq 496 and you will see this:
    Tabari 8:62/Ishaq:496 "Ali [Muhammad's adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, 'Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.'"


    In The Name Of Allah - Women in Islam

    So the religion I chose to join thinks I am stupid and easily replaced :D

    Now read this ... and thank you so much to the author of this blog for his honesty in posting that he had repeated these offensive lies over and over again but had come to find the truth ... they are totally made up!!!

    Lies Very Important Information : I Believe That Science And Faith Are Identical Twins Story & Experience

    "I am guilty of repeating these FALSE verses as an argument that Muslim women are mistreated as a general rule under the laws of Islam. The lesson I've learned is this. Do not trust any repitition of Islamic scripture you find on the internet, unless it's from a Muslim scholar or at least a well educated Muslim. "

    9:113 reads as follows:

    It is not for the Prophet and those who believe that they should ask of God forgiveness for the idolaters, even though they may be kinsmen, after it has become plain to them that they are the people of Hell.
     
  16. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Here is a quick 3 minute video by Abdul Hakim Murad (he has a double first degree in Arabic from Cambridge and as you will see an excellent understanding of the historic aspects of Islam)

    Here he is discussing the fatwa against Salman Rushdie but he talks about the Islamic penalty for apostasy

    YouTube - Salman Rushdie, Apostasy and Khomeini's Fatwah
     
  17. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    see what they have done to Salman Taseer
     
  18. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Hi NCT

    I really hope you will take 10 minutes from your day and read the discussion between Nick the Pilot and myself on how interfaith discussion should be conducted, in our opinion

    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/calling-to-hajj-is-calling-1921-4.html

    I say this because in my post above I say

    "We only have to read recent news about the murder of a Pakistan Muslim who was killed because he was trying to repeal the blasphemy laws to see how difficult it can be to speak out against the accepted interpretations and of course it explains why scholars in the West are more able to offer their opinions on such controversial subjects."

    and you retort with "see what they have done to Salman Tasee". So clearly you neither bothered to read my post (which I admit was rather long, so why comment at all if you don't have time to read what you are commenting on) nor attempted to understand my point of view, you simply did the "well what about" thing ... which is simply accusatory and therefore not worthy of a considered response.
     

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