I don't know what I don't know.

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by wil, May 14, 2019.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I love watching scientists speculate. They talk of what they think they know and various ideas of what could be. They explore so many options, are willing to go down roads which may or may not yield solutions to their dilemma.

    I like this place and the incredible minds and knowledge here as well. But it is so different. There are so many people here (in the religious realm) who are certain they have the correct answers and know things they cannot prove.

    It is such a dichotomy
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    So do I. And theologians ... another branch of science, after all.

    Same as theology. It's a try and test process.

    So do I.

    I'm not so sure it is?

    Other than we're not obliged to provide empirical evidence for our beliefs, when the object of belief lies outside the empirical realm.

    But then we often don't provide nor even have the empirical evidence for our scientific beliefs, we trust in others to have done that, in the same way as in say psychology, or the more arcane aspects of cosmology, we trust in their convictions based on the interpretation of data.

    Quantum physics would have us believe some bizarre ideas — the idea that Elvis is alive and, somewhere, in the building — just not in this reality.

    But really, their empirical data is based on how they interpret the data.

    Same in science.

    When it comes to belief, however, are we not then into the 'critique v conviction' territory, the old science v religion (non-)debate?

    I mean you express a belief in Unity that's more conviction that critique?

    'It speaks to you', and this is the case for science, religion, whatever ...

    And again, speaking for myself, I am not certain I , nor anyone else (other than the oddballs) have the correct answers and know things they cannot prove.

    Rather we have faith in the interpretation of data that has been investigated over millennia and proven reliable within its paradigm, but I do have some some degree of certainty, within my given paradigm, of where I (and the commentaries) see error and can (to the best of my abilities) field the data that would seem to suggest that such-and-such is an error, sometimes with an almost empirical exactitude.

    In the end it boils down to what one allows, and what one doesn't.

    I allow the idea that there is no God as I understand it, that's what makes it so exciting for me.

    Do you, I wonder, allow the idea that there is (as I understand it)?

    +++

    On a different tack ... have you ever looked into Taoism?
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I am most assuredly an agnostic, albeit a nontheist of the realm in which I was brought upto believe G!d is, I don't buy into that in any way shape or form. But I am open to many possibilities of G!d and of none at all. (I think either end of the spectrum nonsensical but that is just me)

    As to the way, I'd like to say yes, but in hindsight I have to say no, as at time I spent looking at it was in the spectrum of only cursory.
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    But there is a huge difference.

    I've never been referred to a 2000 year old science text. The stuff I learned in science 50 years ago is not the same as the stuff my kids learned 20 years ago.
     
  5. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Active Member

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    2000-year-old preserved loaf of bread from Pompeii Volcano explosion that petrified everything that the smoldering ashe settled on cir79 AD.
    [​IMG]


    The Kaiser roll (Emperor roll, German: Kaisersemmel), also called a Vienna roll (Wiener Kaisersemmel; as made by hand also:Handsemmel, Slovene: kajzerca) or a hard roll, is a typically crusty round bread roll, originally from Austria. It is made from whiteflour, yeast, malt, water and salt, with the top side usually divided in a symmetric pattern of five segments, separated by curved superficial cuts radiating from the centre outwards or folded in a series of overlapping lobes resembling a crown.[2] The crispKaisersemmel is a traditional Austrian food officially approved by the Federal Ministry of Agriculture.[3]

    Semmel (derived from Latin: simila, wheat flour) is the common name for any kind of roll in Austria and the German state of Bavaria, equivalent to Brötchen in Northern Germany or Weck / Weckle in Baden-Württemberg.
    Kaisersemmel (Maschinensemmel)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_roll

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Withdrawn
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Wil, I withdrew my above post because it was a 'here we go again' entry.

    For the benefit of you and all, I'd like to declare that I am of the opinion we are 'brothers from a different mother', in this case being family, country, culture ... all of which is inescapable in shaping who we are.

    Part of your perception, not a million miles from my own, is that we're dealing with people who stand by their interpretation of a 2,000 year old text. People who think they understand it, and do not take into account any of the subsequent 2,000 years of investigation and commentary. In my case, for example, it's a 2,000 year old concept of gender and sexual orientation that simply doesn't stand in light of current understandings of the issues involved.

    From what you've said, and from what I know of 'Bible belt' America — the current political machinations on the abortion debate is a case in point — your problem is way bigger than mine.

    So I feel for you.

    But the MBD does refer to a 2,000 year old text, does it not? Without that 2,000 old text, Unity has got nothing.

    Same here. The stuff I was taught in catechism class when I was a kid worked from a book that's a whole different document from the current catechism. My beef with the MBD is its founded on a 'scientific' understanding that's nearly 200 years old, and much of which is no longer viable in the light of current insights into human psychology and consciousness.

    The 'I AM' as the Higher Self is a myth with no scientific foundation whatsoever.

    Empirical data allows us to see further and deeper into the material world, but atomic theory was laid down by the Greeks. And religion necessarily deals with non-material things, so empiricism does not apply.

    In many sciences: mathematics, linguistics, philosophy, psychology, the list goes on, 2,000 year old texts are required reading, and their data is, in its own way, as viable now as ever. Insights and inspirations then have shaped the sciences we have today.

    As ever, it seems to me you're looking for empirical data when the core principles in question are inaccessible to empirical inquiry. That's not a fault or a flaw, it's just that empirical investigation is limited in its scope.

    The Golden Rule: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' cannot be quantified or measured, but it's a good rule, despite its age.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    No it ain't.

    It is out dated and arrogant and considers only your own needs and desires.

    Do unto others as they would have done unto them.

    Is better, better yet.

    Don't do anything until you ask!!
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    You are by far the most contrary fellow I've ever met ... one day one thing, next day its opposite! :D
     
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  10. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    But, what if they don't want to be asked?

    Should I feed someone to the crocodiles just because they are crocodile worshippers and want to be fed to the crocodiles?
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    You have such a way with compliments.
    Good example. I detest anchovies on my pizza, I prefer pineapple and jalepeno. I wouldn't order a pizza for you without asking. I live in the consent world and don't assume you like the same books, movies as I.
     
  12. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    And I'm sure you wouldn't want someone ordering a pizza for you without asking.

    The Golden Rule is so similar to the Hadith "want for your Brother what you want for yourself" -
    I don't think it is to be so literal, as to "what I want for dinner is what I want my Brother to have for dinner", but rather
    "I want my Brother to have what he wants just as I have what I want".

    Now if my Brother wants something Haraam (Forbidden) in Islam - such as pork for dinner or feeding him to the crocodiles - then I am Forbidden to provide that for him.
     
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  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    As a vegetarian for decades I wouldn't cook or offer meat to guests at my house... I got over it, you rat what you want. At burning man on breakfast detail I cooked 20 pounds of bacon for the heathens!
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Lol rat=eat
     
  15. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I can't imagine any guest that I would have in my home asking me to do something that they know is a violation of my Religious obligations; nor would I knowingly do that or something similar to anyone else. If you - being a vegetarian - have no problem cooking bacon for the heatheans, then why shouldn't you?

    I'm sure there are things you could be asked to do, contribute to, or participate in that you wouldn't feel comfortable with or that would violate your personal ethics, beliefs or whatever - I could be wrong but I doubt it.

    Kinda curious how you ended up with the Burning Man Cooking gig ???
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    As to the not doing what is uncomfortable or against principles...of course that ain't happening. As I said for many years I felt i was not going to contribute to any of my friends meat eating habits...after a while I decided to honor their choices, but yes, there are limits.

    When one attends burning man in the conventional way it is a highly participatory adventure. You take part in building infrastructure, art, shade structures, camp, handle your own food, lodging, waste disposal, showers ,gray water, cleanup etc.That is unless you go celebrity style glamping with pay-for-play lodging chefs, costumes and the like.

    I was in a camp of over a hundred folks, everyone works to make it happen. Some just come for the event week and take chore assignments while there. When I go to burns or rainbow gatherings I prefer to be one of the early arrivals take part in building first aid, greeters, rangers, layout camps and watch it go from a field or forest or the playa to a camp of hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands and then stay for teardown, cleanup, the leave no trace police line and be one of the last ones out. For me it is a blast to watch it go from natural to a community of art and costumes and large structures with bkinky LEDs and videos and music and then back to nature the way we found it.
     
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  17. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Very Cool
     
  18. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    That's just straight out false. Sorry for being so harsh but sometimes you just enter pink-glasses land. Have you herd of Pythagoras? I'm not going to list a million things that's still the same in science as 50 years ago. Science dosen't change all the time, it's changes some of the things. And in my (non-religious) opinion, the same goes for theology. (Which may or may not be the same as religion)
    Ouch! I thought I was the one!
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Lol, to funny and of course!

    Chalk this upto wil's brain thinking semi complete thoughts yet only writing half of them.

    To be clear(er) science changes when new information is brought to light, when old information is proven wrong.

    We don't leave old outdated idioms in our science books because of tradition or age...old science is not always good science. We update things.

    With the thousand year old religious texts floating around the US is creating yet another generation of literalists...holding the book in the air and screaming it is written.

    Yeah we have our flat.earthers to...but the tin foil hat club doesn't fill megachurches and avoid vaccinations.
     
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  20. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    If there is bad science
    If theology is science
    Then there can be bad theology
     

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