Faith and Belief

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by CobblersApprentice, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    How would others here distinguish between Faith and Belief - if at all.

    Thank you
     
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  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Interesting, without looking them up ... I use them as having two meanings, and use them interchangeably. As both the action and or the thing.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Do you have belief in your faith or faith in your belief? Lol
     
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  4. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Hi wil, please don't give me a headache!

    My question came about from reading a post by a friend on Facebook. He asked if we had a "science head" or a "faith head". The "faith head" was described as:- Starting, Getting an Idea, Ignoring Contradicting Evidence, Keeping the Idea Forever, End. While the "Science Head" was all about testing ideas by experiment and thus leading to evolving theories.

    Well, not my idea of Faith at all. But possibly my own idea is open to criticism in as much as it CANNOT be contradicted. I have faith/trust in Reality. Nothing is guaranteed.

    Whether heading for the Pure Land
    Or heading for hell
    All is in Amida's hands.

    As I see it, "belief" clings, anticipates results, seeks to "justify" our "selves". Faith lets go. And in a strange way I find this is not a passive state, but can be a catalyst for on-going transformation, beyond my calculations.
     
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  5. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    LOL, that's about the norm for 'blind faith atheists', that is those who criticise religion without really knowing or understanding what they're 'pontificating' :)D) about!

    I'd say faith is to do with intellect (not intelligence), belief to do with will.
     
  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    On an intellectual level:
    • Faith: a mental gesture indicating confidence.
    • Belief: a mental construct.
    On an emotional level:
    • Faith: a feeling of surrender
    • Belief: a feeling of longing
     
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  7. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    That distinction was new to me (i.e. Intellect and intelligence) and I do not understand it. A quick Google gives:- Intellect = head = facts. Intelligence = heart = feelings.

    Are you saying that belief "wills" that which the "intellect/head/facts" dictate? I'm a bit lost.

    Thanks
    :-
     
  8. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Hi Cino, by "longing" do you mean a wish for "another world", a wish to become someone else, a wish for things to be other than what they are.

    Perhaps I should just ask what you mean by "longing".
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I was using intellect in the Traditional, or perhaps Traditionalist sense.

    This from Frithjof Schuon:
    "The Intellect – which is precisely what makes evident to us the absoluteness of the Self and the relativity of “objectivations” – is only “human” to the extent that it is accessible to us, but it is not so in itself; it is essentially increatus et increabile (Eckhart), although “accidentally” created by virtue of its reverberations in the macrocosm and in microcosms; geometrically speaking, the Intellect is a ray rather than a circle, it “emanates” from God rather than “reflecting” Him.

    "“Allah is known to Himself alone” say the Sufis; this saying, while it apparently excludes man from a direct and total knowledge, in reality enunciates the essential and mysterious divinity of pure Intellect; formulae of this kind are only fully understandable in the light of the often quoted hadith: “He who knows his soul knows his Lord”. Or, in the Christian Tradition: "And because you are (adopted) sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father." The Fathers taught that it is the Spirit who reveals the Son, and the Son who reveals the Father...

    "Remove the passional element from the soul and the intelligence – remove “the rust from the mirror” or “from the heart” – and the Intellect will be released; it will reveal from within what religion reveals from without.

    This release is strictly impossible – we must insist upon it – without the co-operation of a religion, an orthodoxy, a traditional esoterism with all that this implies."
     
  10. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I mean the emotion of yearning, longing.
     
  11. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Thank you Thomas and Cino.

    The post by Thomas will take a bit of digesting.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I have a belief the scientific method works and thru repeated experimentation have faith if will work in the future.
     
  13. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Wil, which in a way was one of my thoughts on reading the initial post on Facebook, that faith/trust was necessary for anyone to pursue the scientific quest, which is surely dependant upon trust in the intelligibility of our Cosmos.

    A bit of a tangent, but I think of Einstein saying "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility"
     
  14. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Just a quick word. This gets my gander up! A traditional "esoterism"? My own pure Land Faith is very egalitarian. Faith/trust/shinjin is open to all, can come via infinite ways, and is not in the hands of any privileged group.
     
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  15. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    I'm afraid that Mr Schuon is a bit above my head. He appears to be saying that an uncreated and uncreatable mode of "knowing", not human yet somehow ("accidentally") coming into being in a created world, and thus accessible to us, has the potential to act as our insight into "reality". This if we remove our own passions, a "removal" only possible if we "co-operate" with an established Religion, even an esoteric understanding of it.

    If I misunderstand of have misrepresented what was posted I apologise.
     
  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I believe I can fly.
    I jump off a cliff because I have faith in that belief?
     
  17. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Yes, a belief can be right or wrong.
     
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  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    In a sense, I believe my GPS is accurate, so I have the faith to use it? If it doesn't work, faith did not conform belief? There may be a deep philospical importance here -- in the shades of meaning of these two English language words?

    I believe, but how long should I continue to believe when my faith, put to the test, does not confirm my belief?
     
  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Good thread. The edit function is still out of action, along with a couple of other functions. It will get fixed, hopefully. Welcome ...
     
  20. CobblersApprentice

    CobblersApprentice Active Member

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    Oh, I thought I was being excluded from editing because I was a newcomer!

    Thank you for the welcome.
     
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