Are humans predisposed to believe in magic?

Discussion in 'Science and the Universe' started by wil, Jul 6, 2019.

  1. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    A pure heart create for me, O God,
    put a steadfast spirit within me.
    Do not cast me away from your presence,
    nor deprive me of your holy spirit.
    Psalm 51
     
  2. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I really do regret that I was the cause of IO losing a valuable member. I did apologise and in exchange of PMs requested, almost begged him to stay. It seems to me he had already decided to leave, really. My comments seemed just to tip the balance with him. However @CobblersApprentice if you are reading as a guest please do return to IO. You were a valuable member, and I do apologise again.
     
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  3. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I would also say that RJM was simply the catalyst, it seemed like it was a nomad nature in Cobblers. I also miss him.
     
  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I wonder whether he misses me? ;)
     
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  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    People come and people go, DA/CA who knows what he will be next eh?

    Some us IO to test their thoughts in other waters, some to hear.tjeir own thoughts, others in lieu of email, we all have our notions, our foibles, peoole who set us right and others that rub us wrong and make mistakes occasionally pissing folks off willy nilly...

    Still.the most calm, most accepting, most.contemplative, informative, inspirational forum I have found.

    My kinda misfits!
     
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  6. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Wasn't that what he told us?
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Lol, I could be mistaken, funny getting used to knew brain
     
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  9. RJM

    RJM God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Unfortunately not. He told us he used to be @Tariki. I do miss @Devils' Advocate.
    You have a lot to do with how it is here ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    ..you got me there.
    As RJM points out, you've been around a long time, so you should know.
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Late to the party, but this goes to the heart of my own spiritual pursuits.

    Why indeed?

    Lots of good answers here, most based in philosophies and religions of the last 2000-2500 years or so, but we have evidence of humanity reaching out to the Divine 100,000 years ago, so there's a solid 97,500 years of human history unaccounted for.

    I haven't been brave enough yet to try, but this is the time of year for it: anyone hear of the Pyschomanteum?

    https://www.near-death.com/psychology/triggers/psychomanteum.html

    Dr Raymond Moody is/was (I believe he has passed on now) a world renowned investigator and authority on near death experiences, and he developed a modern twist on the old Greek Necromanteion

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromanteion_of_Acheron

    It involves being in pitch black, a sensory depriving state comparable to that of the painted caves of Europe and elsewhere. It also involves a very low wattage light source, about 3 watts by the old American standard as I recall, and a gazing mirror.

    I am given to understand the success rate is quite high, but not 100%, which also indicates a person must be willing and open to receipt.
     
  12. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin

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    Interesting, thanks @juantoo3!

    I have never performed this technique, but it look similar enough to other "scrying" methods which I have used that I'd say it would yield similar results.

    One factor that is never explicitly stated in the procedure but which is strongly implied by the context, is why the impressions thus gathered should be interpreted as communications from the next world.

    The hypnagogic state aimed for will certainly yield rich and surprising imagery, auditory impressions, maybe even tactile feelings or proprioception (our "body position sensors"), but I've seen such relaxed gazing techniques applied to all kinds of spirit communication, not restricted to our departed. One example would be Crowley's experimental records in "The vision and the Voice".

    So I believe the intention to receive communication from the ancestors plays a decisive part in Moody's technique.

    Anyway, fascinating stuff! I have no ancestors I want to meet at this point, but how about you? Whom would you like to pat on the back?
     
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  13. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    No idea if it is true, but the family story is that my great x8 uncle was an usher at Ford’s Theater and seated Lincoln in his box there. Would be interesting to talk with that man.
     
  14. marceltr

    marceltr Established Member

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    The reason why we have many religions has little to do with their creeds.
     
  15. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Sorry I missed this. Since Moody was instrumental in promoting what became known as "Near Death Experiences," my best guess is he had a bit of a slant in that direction. Regardless, a Psych professor I studied under was an avid proponent of the technique.

    I just want to give my Mom and Dad and Grandfathers a big hug, and meet the Grandmothers I never knew.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    A lot of the early posts are good in this thread, hard to pick just one to lead off from.

    I think this one comes pretty close to how I see things. Humans have a spectrum of range of thought. Some are hamstrung by society, convention, "training/school/indoctrination," and religion - likewise these things can inform a thought as well. Seldom in my experience can a person set aside all presumptions to look at a matter with fresh eyes, typically people barge in headlong leading with their cherished presumptions.

    To the OP regarding humans being predisposed to seeing/accepting "magic," I think a large part is situational, pending degree of understanding. Hard for some today probably to imagine a time when science hadn't explained away all of the mysteries of life. I still don't know what exactly thunder is...at this point I've heard 4 or 5 different "scientific" explanations, all of which disagreed with the others, at this point I just tune out. That's not even counting "angels playing ten pins."

    Imagining back to a time when so much in life was a mystery, I think "magic" may have helped our forebears in some capacity, though as with so much to do with religion it also became a tool of manipulation. It wasn't unheard of for a priest to also be a magician, and magicians figure prominently throughout Classical History. I realize some may take umbrage, but I also see correlation between magicians then and scientists now, they were men of learning who could manipulate nature (maybe more accurately engineers instead of scientists), and whose methods were largely unknown to those not privy to their methods and education.

    Precisely what role magicians had in regard to religion is unclear to me, but there are most certainly those who promote that position, ranging in my travels from New Age "past lives" to Moses duking it out with Pharoah's High Priests before the palace dais to Simon Magus.

    I've suggested in the past a continuum from Alchemy, particularly the Taoist brand, through into modern Science in an effort to demonstrate that science has its roots in religion. This to my way of seeing things is no different, there was power to be had over those who did not know by those who did know.

    I think it is also possible, though obviously unproveable in the normal sense, that some early magical science is forgotten, at least in the mainstream, though undoubtedly there are still quiet sects that keep that knowledge alive and to themselves. Given the shift in political winds centuries ago that sent many to be burned alive or worse, I can understand the trepidation. It is said Sir Isaac Newton walked a fine line between his position as a clergyman and some of the experiments he performed that in his day were accorded magical or alchemical status by some.

    I still find it fascinating, the fabled Philosopher's Stone was rumored to turn base metals into gold, and impart immortality to a human. It is no surprise so many of the Courts of Europe quietly kept alchemists on the payroll - and if they didn't produce, they were easily offed with an accusation of heresy! And Ferdinand and Isabella sent so many explorers to the New World seeking...<pause for effect>...gold and the fountain of youth (immortality).

    To my way of reasoning there is little difference between magic, alchemy and science, apart from the entertaining parlor tricks. It is really a matter of perspective. And let us not forget the Shamans....
     
  17. Krisha Mitra Das

    Krisha Mitra Das Ethical Vegan Yogini

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    My guru said if you really paid close attention to your life, you don't need astrology/horoscopes as you would have a very accurate description of your life in the future...Regarding my own life, she's right.
     
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  18. ScholarlySeeker

    ScholarlySeeker Well-Known Member

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    I'm way late to this, but I just recently joined so that is my excuse....Lol!

    Julian Jaynes noted in his book "The Bicameral Mind" that early mankind back in the Sumerian days (what, about 3500 B.C.?) brains were not as separated by that middle section of connective tissue as ours are today, and that they LITERALLY had two brains in their heads, and the right hemisphere could talk to their left one, and they could literally HEAR voices, which they attributed to the Gods. We have evolved enough in our brains that the two hemispheres are now no longer that connected and each hemisphere operates more differently now. It's not necessarily that they were disposed to visions or magic or whatnot, but that they literally physiologically could hear voices which they had no literal idea where they came from! It's a fascinating insight to be sure.

    The idea of magic is fascinating to me as well. Early man believed everything was alive, and so magic from our view is not their view. Their world view was not our materialistic dead matter point of view, which is only a couple hundred years old. All things had life in them for the first several millenia of thinking man until just yesterday...so to speak. They definitely had connections to a different world than we view now as one to exploit and destroy because we are the king of the hill. Our feeling of separateness s going to be our undoing if we don't pull our heads out and quit pretending to be God.
     
  19. ScholarlySeeker

    ScholarlySeeker Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that was the woodenly literalist thinking so stupid in the society. Alchemy has never been about turning actual lead into actual gold, it was all "soul" work. The philosopher's Stone is the soul of the alchemist himself. The great Opus, the "Work" was for the alchemist to purify his own soul. Yes alchemy involved using physical substances, which was a help in their meditation of what they were actually doing, turning the fallen nature of their own leaden soul into the gold of their ascended soul into great heights of spiritual truth and reality.
     
  20. ScholarlySeeker

    ScholarlySeeker Well-Known Member

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    Is this a case of rational vs irrational, or can we see it as the actual category of rational vs suprarational? It may not be the Aristotelian logic of either /or we need to be using, but a different and more comprehensive logical basis that includes yet a third category....perhaps?
     

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