Sacrifice, Offering

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Cino, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Since it came up in the Salvation/Enlightenment thread -

    What are your thoughts about sacrifice? Is there a difference between sacrifice and offering? What is the purpose of this gesture or practice? What about self-sacrifice?
     
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  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    There is a lot of mystery in religion concerning this..
    It is quite simple to me, it is about our intentions.

    Making a sacrifice requires our intention to be purely for the sake of G-d alone.
    Animal sacrifice, for example, should be done to please G-d, and the meat distributed to family and the poor.

    Other sacrifices include giving alms with no hidden intentions.
    If by self-sacrifice, you mean some form of suicide, it is prohibited.
    That includes as a weapon of war as well.

    Hope this helps
     
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  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Ah yes, wasn't thinking in that direction, good to clear that one out early. Thanks. (One day I hope to see yet in my lifetime, it won't be necessary to state such things explicitly. Used to be like that, I remember. Maybe it was just my sheltered childhood)

    Anyway, self-sacrifice has more spiritual connotations of selfless service and humility. To me at least.
     
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Also, @CobblersApprentice mentioned human sacrifice in the other thread, wondering where that idea might have originated.

    I have a rather secular angle on that. It often takes a human victim or many, until society recognizes a problem and implements measures to mitigate it. It took many gruesome traffic deaths before seat-belts became mandatory. Who knows how many cyclists and pedestrians have to be killed by autonomous vehicles before a ban on testing those algorithms in actual traffic is implemented. How many lynchings did it take until racism was at least addressed. Maybe we humans like to think the same of the gods, sacrificing in their name until the gods could not stand it any more?
     
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Sacrifice is giving the best of what you have to God. You killed the best animal you had and burned it to ashes. It was valuable to you, but you gave it to God. It became corrupted to the idea of blood on the altar. Christ came to do away with the by now corrupted idea of blood sacrifice forever. imo
     
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  6. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    Brave new world .. I'm too old for that now .. much like the cashless society that is round the corner.
    If you haven't got a plastic card, you are refused any sales :eek:

    The "machinary" of the Beast (Revelation) is becoming uppermost. It enslaves us all.
     
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  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    Mmm .. I more or less agree. What is an altar? Religions evolve as time passes, and not always in a good way.
    The prophets were sent to warn the people of their innovations.
     
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  8. Oh, I love the contactless way of life. In Costa's it seems like I'm paying nothing at all.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    You take the first step towards God, and God takes nine steps. Sacrifice is giving what you value to God, a sign of trust, of being open to God. Fasting is another way of sacrifice. Animals were valuable. It became corrupted to the idea of just spilling blood -- as if it was the blood on the altar that mattered.
     
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  10. Seeking to bring some of this together and relate it to my own experience, and to Pure Land (aka Shin) Buddhism. Before Shinran (13th century) it was asserted that the devotee must inculcate the correct attitude prior to birth into the Pure Land. Correct "sincerity", correct "aspiration", correct "trust". Shinran saw that, as "foolish beings", such "correct" attitudes were impossible for us, that in the constant introspection of seeking them and bringing them to some sort of fruition, we would in fact simply be relying upon self power (jiriki) and not Other Power (tariki), indulge in "calculation", even self-justification. Shinran taught that Amida in fact bestowed them upon the devotee. In knowing this, my own experience is that my awareness and acknowledgement of my lack of true aspiration, my lack of true sincerity, my lack of genuine trust, is the ice that can become the waters of enlightenment.

    Obviously, approaching all this from the Mahayana side of non-duality gives a fresh perspective than from the "western" side of Theism.

    From Saichi's Journals:-

    O Saichi! Will you tell us of Other Power?
    Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
    What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.
     
  11. No.One

    No.One New Member

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    Hello Cino,

    IMO....
    My thoughts on Sacrifice..be from a belief of ones means by representation.
    sacrifice be more likely of ones fasting from. And in ones dependent of believing by proving in its strength to whom belief for.

    I believe so, be of a big difference with the two..(Sacrifice & Offering)

    IMO..Sacrifice cannot exist without any offering, in other words would be said: one cannot take..by what was not given,
    One cannot go outside..by which one was never inside,


    But now, one is ‘offered’ a present(ones presence). Therefore being present..one cannot reject it, but for The One Whom gave it ..one has rejected its idea of it. And this be where I believe sacrifice makes its place over rejection. And ones offering be showing in the belief by sacrificing in any of its rejection as to be ones given thanks for the belief in its present.

    IMO
     
  12. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Well said.

    I understand the sacrifice of animals to be an act of obedient worship.

    Offering sacrifice, with the proper intention, is a means of bringing the worshiper closer to Allah Al Qareeb.

    One of the words for sacrifice in Arabic is Qurban, from the root Qariba meaning "to offer/sacrifice", "to be near", "to approach", "to be close in relationship or rank".

    One of The Names of Allah is Al Qareeb (The Most Near), also comes from this root.

    At Hajj, Qurbani meat is distributed among the people and we are instructed by Allah and The Messenger to kill the animal quickly, with a sharp blade, to reduce any suffering as much as possible.

    Many Masajid (Mosques) have a place for sacrificing animals on the premises.
     
  13. Thank you. Just thinking of Buddhism's "Perfection of Giving" and seeking to understand. From realising non-duality within duality. In giving and taking, offering and receiving, there must be the one who gives and the one who receives, yet if we prefer one to the other, we fall short. We remain in the realm of gaining and losing.

    Giving and receiving arise together. They are "not two".

    One zen guy said that when giving is perfect, there is "no loss and no gain". Seeking any reward (for giving) seems to pollute. And would one with everything, gain?
     
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  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    G!d demanding, needing a sacrifice from man seems patently ludicrous to me, I'm ready to be convinced otherwise.

    I simply can't imagine the creator of heaven and earth, of gravity and thermodynamics and nuclear radiation, of billions of star systems and all life forms..needing anything from its creations.

    I make a pie or build a house I don't demand anything from it.

    The requests are time, talent, treasure and tithe.

    All of which we give in exchange for goods and services in life and I think the whole sacrifice/offering thing is just us an the poor phoning G!d, putting our needs, wants onto Her.

    Time, volunteering as everyone else, talent, volunteering your specialized abilities, treasure, giving up what you've earned in society for spirit, tithe, those occasional gifts are not enough we want you to establish regular ongoing giving program, and to assist we can take direct withdrawal or simply charge your credit card, fill out this form, and we have this form which you should consider as an end of life donation, we can add a codicil to your will...

    Me? I'd like to see the money transfers from the religious organization to the G!d account, where is that?

    Seems to me the middle man is taking all this money..
     
  15. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I do not believe Allah needs us to offer sacrifice.

    I also do not believe Allah needs us to pray, or worship in any way, or to meditate, be charitable, humble, loving and forgiving.

    I do not believe Allah needs us to be saved or enlightened, to evolve or transcend.

    I do not believe Allah needs us (or anything) to exist at all - yet we do.
     
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  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    What comes easy just gets wasted?
     
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  17. We have to feel we have earned whatever?
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    You are quite right. Almighty God needs absolutely nothing from us .. it is we who are in need.
    If G-d makes demands upon us, it is for our own benefit .. individually and as a society.
     
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  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Perhaps there are spiritual laws? Sacrifice is the key? But it can't be given or bought.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  20. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    It is important, I think, to distinguish between "demand" and "command". I found a good distinction and have it here:

    As nouns the difference between demand and command

    is that demand is the desire to purchase goods and services while command is an order, a compelling task given to an inferior or a machine.

    As verbs the difference between demand and command
    is that demand is to request forcefully while command is to order, give orders; to compel or direct with authority.
     
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