Do we need salvation?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by wil, Jul 31, 2019.

  1. To a certain extent I assumed much of what you first say. Lets face it (as he scores his riposte, and ponders just what was in your sandwich) many Christians speak of Buddhism without much insight, knowledge or even, alas, any genuine wish to see anything other than a "false way".

    You then follow with a few terms that are new to me and leave me floundering a bit. Trying to make sense of some of it, I think you may be alluding to some sort of distinction Eckhart makes between the Godhead and God. I may be wrong.

    Yes, Merton did insist that Eckhart was not the "exceptional" Christian that Suzuki seemed to see him as.

    And I love individuality. Though my heart is with "all ways are one" I love also that each is unique to itself. Which heartens me.
     
  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I'm sorry, but if I has 5p for every time I have read the name Merton on these forums in the last couple of months, I could afford to buy at least one complete set of his books from Amazon. There is a now a dedicated thread for Merton:

    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19148/page-3#post-329806

    Threads on these forums do wind and wander, but may we sort-of try to get this one a little bit on topic? Original thoughts and perceptions welcome, as requested in the OP ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  3. Hi, looking back the M word has been mentioned on this thread as an organic development of the thread itself. That there is another thread that has developed from a specific aspect of the M word and his life is irrelevant.

    Are you speaking as a "moderator"? If so, I would see it as heavy handed and unnecessary. But I would seek to "obey".

    If not, I would politely inform you that I will continue to mention Thomas Merton as and when my own knowledge of him and his writings appears relevant to whatever thread it happens to be.
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    No. I'm not speaking as a moderator. Just as me. In fact I've put you on ignore, and so now I'm once again able to participate in the forums without being buried in your posts. I would be pleased to know what you have to contribute about the OP? Frankly your Merton posts are beginning to amount to proselytising which is against the forum rules, ok?
     
  5. Ok, fair enough. I know where I'm not wanted.

    Goodbye all.

    Thanks.
     
  6. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    You see, Merton took the Trappist vows. He vowed to the rule of St Benedict. I can link that for you, if you like. If someone joins a trappist monastery, he takes the vows. This means a life of austerity and obedience, etc. More than most other Benedictine orders. He lives by the bell. That's what he agrees to. He didn't like to keep his vows. He could have just left. He was given great leeway. He had an affaire. He lived anything but a trappist existence.

    You are a very welcome member. But there are a lot of other people here too. Please don't go. But please don't spoil it for everyone else here, by completely dominating the boards with Thomas Merton stuff. It's getting really boring. Best regards.

    You could just stay, and put ME on ignore. That way we'll agree to disagree, lol?
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Hi CA — I think you're grasping the wrong end of the stick here.
    Agreed. But not this Christian, I do wish you'd bear that in mind.

    A couple of things here:
    1: Merton seems to have thought a very great deal about Eckhart, I thought Eckhart was a beacon for him, I'm sure somewhere he refers to Eckhart as a 'raft'. That puts Merton ahead of the field, in my book, regarding Eckhart.
    2: Eckhart is exceptional. I'd go so far as to say he's never been matched within the Western Christian Tradition, of the Orthdox Patriarchies I cannot say, but don't think so.
    3: I think Suzuki admires Eckhart because he assumes what the New Age / anti-doctrinaire / etc. writers seem to think, that Eckhart was preaching something distinctly at odds with orthodox doctrine, and that of which Eckahrt spoke could be attained without the need nor dependence on a Scripture or a Tradition.
    4: Suzuki expressed his admiration for Eckhart because he thought Eckhart stripped Christianity of its 'irrational elements', its 'mythological paraphernalia' and its 'unnecessary historical appendix' — in short, he stripped Christianity of Christ, a figurehead he assumed 'modelled after legends and mythology' (Suzuki, Mysticism, p1-4)

    Which I think is what Merton believed, it's what I believe, but it's evidently not what Suzuki believed.
     
  8. Last post @Thomas before I am deleted........Suzuki speaks of us becoming "once again, the Tom, Dicks or Harry's we have always been".

    That is individual enough for me.

    All the best
     
  9. stranger

    stranger lost in the night

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    Cobblers, I would very strongly encourage you to stay. It was actually a conversation between you (as Tariki) and Thomas which originally brought me to this list. I feel there is much more to be said yet. Take a break if you have to but don't leave.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  10. Hi, if I could work out how to send a PM I would give you my email address. Quite happy to keep in touch.

    Thanks
     
  11. stranger

    stranger lost in the night

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    Yes, you would be very welcome to do that. Perhaps someone could give instructions... Having never sent one myself, I don't know how either. :) I still say a break rather than leaving.
     
  12. Thanks, will try and work it out. I just cannot see any option to send a PM, just a "Private Conversation". I could try that.
     
  13. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Private Conversation is just another way of saying, PM (Private Message). Wording got switched around when IO changed hands and servers a while back.
     
  14. Hi, thanks. So a PM is a PC, or vice versa. Good to know how it all functions.........:)
     
  15. While I'm here......

    2. We are using "exceptional" in two different ways. Suzuki saw Eckhart as virtually divorced from the entire orthodox Christian Tradition, and I was simply saying that Merton sought to make the point that Eckhart was not "exceptional" in such a sense.

    4. It would be my opinion that Suzuki sought to strip Christianity of Jesus, not Christ. (I appreciate that you see them as in some sense "one" and that therefore he misses the "point") The subject is complex.

    And I do fully understand that you are not a "fundamentalist" Christian of the "One Way" type.

    All the best.

    (Hopefully @StevePame will soon act to delete my account)
     
  16. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Oh, I agree with this thought. The cult of Jesus as abused -- the We Christians Club -- can take away from the understanding of the eternal (and universal) Christ that was manifest 'God With Us' in Jesus the bridge between God and man. 'He who knows me, knows the Father that is in me.'

    But the wonder of Jesus is that in spite of human sects and cults, the Christ always shines through? Whether for the guy who stands there with the go/stop sign at the roadworks, or the greatest, richest and most powerful ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  17. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    So would you then equate Self Realization with Salvation ?
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    The point being that Eckhart wasn't divorced at all from the Tradition, much as New Age and other voices like to think he was. You can trace the Dominican influence in his development, you can trace his antecedents.

    Not really, take away Jesus, and there is no Christ ... Christ merely becomes an abstract concept for whatever you want it to be, as is evidenced by the fact that so much has already been claimed for Christ by those intent on stripping off his garments.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I think that may reach the crux of my inquiry.

    Do we need to be saved?

    By others...
     
  20. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    From what?
     

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