The Nature of Divine Intervention

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by xenu, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Yes.

    Too much light causes blindness. A small touch is enough. Enough to warm and comfort, not so much to utterly overwhelm. And the effects of God's wonderful touch continue long afterwards to expand and grow within. It is never forgotten.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  2. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I'm just going to object to this binary presentation of gender, but we can move on.
     
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  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Nevertheless, all Eukaryotes propagate by sexual reproduction ;)

    Sure, let's move along ...
     
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Well, psychology, in both the clinical, neuropsychological and some therapeutic disciplines, does apply here, to some extend. We can study how entheogens, magnetic fields, breathing patterns, meditation etc influence the subjective experience of subjects.

    Still a long way from explaining spiritual events, but very interesting in its interdisciplinary attempts at understanding them better. Acknowledging the validity, if subjective, of these types of events and experiences.
     
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  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Sure. To me, it's Plato's cave. In the same way that our physical sight and senses show us only the tip of the iceberg of what nature really is -- the full electromagnetic spectrum, sub-atomic activity and so on -- perhaps our scientific explorations of nature can only ever reveal only the tiniest fraction of complete reality, because all our scientific explorations can only be explorations of nature, using ingenious telescopes and microscopes and other instruments are extensions of our own natural senses?

    In other words we can admit of no reality unless we can see, touch and taste it with our natural senses and the instruments we use to extend them.

    Then it reaches the logical conclusion that our consciousness is just a by product of our animal brain function.

    A lot of people are totally convinced of the fact. Because it is a logical and natural conclusion of materialism.
     
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  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I would challenge the word "by-product", on the grounds that this value-judgement (not the main product) is made by the very phenomenon that is being judged. This circularity of self-deprecation is coy to the degree of being cheesy.
     
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Ok. 'Product', then?
    In the sense that consciousness was not the goal of brain evolution, but just popped out of it. So now, here we are debating abstract principles on the internet?
     
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  8. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    It's the gulf between:

    We know how it works. Well, a very little bit of it. Therefore we don't need God.

    And:

    Oh, so that's how God did it! How absolutely wonderful.
     
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  9. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I recognize that, and it comes in many flavors. Here's mine: "How absolutely wonderful, this is unlike anything I expected, unlike anything I ever heard of, how can I call it God without making an utter mockery of what was made evident to me."

    That's the thing with divine intervention, I believe, that it won't play according to our rules.
     
  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Is it the word God you don't like? Or the concept of a higher, spiritual intelligence?

    EDIT
    Natural intelligence, even: Gaia sort of thing?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
  11. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I have no problem with the word or concept of God, gods, higher (or base) spiritual intelligence, natural intelligence, or any of that. These terms and concepts just do not apply to what happened to me. That's all there is to it.

    Edited: clarification that this is about my experience.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    And you know this?
     
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  13. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    The zillions of events happening every moment in just one single cell of a fly's wing?
     
  14. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    You're on a roll :D
     
  15. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Are we trapped in Mary's room?
     
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  16. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Yes. But as I wrote in multiple other threads, it is hard to pin down and express. I am not trying to convince you.
     
  17. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I don't think we are arguing about qualia, though that is of course possible.

    The venerable old parable of the elephant-investigating blind men is more to the point, I feel. I would be the one babbling about how the space the elephant's tusks just sliced through was nothing like an elephant at all, perhaps.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I'll be on the couch taking a nap...

    But please continue.
     
  19. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    You wrote our physical descriptions of the world and ourselves are "still a long way from explaining spiritual events," and I'm thinking spiritual events - such as one's experience of divine intervention - are, well, spiritual because they are always experienced by someone. So even with every physical description of nature, there will be a piece of knowledge that eludes us: the feeling of experiencing divine intervention.

    Consider Moses' experience as retold in the Qur'an:

    "Hast thou heard tell of Moses, when he saw a fire and said unto his family, 'Stay here. Verily I perceive a fire. Perhaps I shall bring you a brand therefrom, or find guidance at the fire'? Then when came came to it, he was called, 'O Moses! Verily I am thy Lord. Take off thy sandals. Truly thou art in the holy valley of Tuwa. I have chosen thee, so listen to what is revealed'" (Qur'an 20.9-13).

    "[Remember] when Moses said unto his family, 'Verily, I perceive a fire. I shall bring you some news therefrom, or a brand, that haply you may warm yourselves" (Qur'an 27.7).​

    Sufis view this verse (27.7) as the stages of the spiritual life: theoretical knowledge about spiritual events, the perception of spiritual events, and the realization of spiritual events. The second and third ones involve some form of experience.

    So in this discussion about divine intervention, I was thinking about Mary's room. Mary knows every physical description of the color red without experiencing it, but upon experiencing it for the first time . . . she learns something new. I kinda wonder about the religious experiences of these great religious founders in ancient texts. In a sense the world in front of them on a daily basis is similar to the world in front of us on a daily basis, yet what is this experience of "fire" ignited in Moses?! If present maybe an observer would say Moses is not experiencing divine intervention, but how would the observer know without experiencing it himself?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  20. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying, but we're also talking about what the blind men feel they are experiencing upon touching the elephant. It's the experience that created their descriptions in the first place. For example, Moses felt he was experiencing the divine and that led to interesting descriptions of the so-called burning bush, but some conjecture he was probably just "high," as @Wil discussed in a previous thread. The former understandings of Moses is a classic case of missing the target under the latter explanation?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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