Ok. But to me it is people trying to force spiritual values in the natural world that causes a lot of problems. Especially those who insist their own scripture -- and their own interpretation of it -- defines the 'spiritual'. Spiritual laws and values cannot be enforced on nature. Spiritual laws are not of this natural dimension. God is not boxed by nature. The natural dimension will always remain what it is? Spiritual vision is beyond the natural world. Give to Ceasar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. Of course I can try to do good. But I am never going to be able to transform the natural. The material/natural world is what it is. It is what is has always been, and what it probably always will be? I can only look to the spiritual in my own way?