Christmas

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by KnowSelf, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus. What are thoughts regarding Christmas, virgin birth, Savior?
     
  2. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    1) None, it is not my holiday.
    2) Don’t believe in it.
    3) Not a word I associate with Jesus.
     
  3. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    My family's always celebrated 25, December as Jesus' conception rather than his birth, other than that, all of the above.
     
  4. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    i respect that, what do you celebrate and how?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  5. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    I don't know, maybe a day of reflection and rest.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  6. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Happy family celebration. No religious ceremonies. Perhaps some discussion of various midwinter celebrations throughout history. Presents to express affection. Good food and drink.
     
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  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Interesting, never heard anyone who did that. Current conjecture is he was born around April right?

    No Chinese dinner, no movie? I've seen some heated discussions amongst my Jewish friends as to which movie they were going to and takeout vs eat out
    Xmas in the US is largely about conspicuous consumption and corporate profits. CocaCola's branding of Santa is famous in marketing classes, as is the whole event. Today's marketing is how can we make the most money from black Friday to boxing day sales...and how to extend it further on both ends without negative affects. After all the baby Jesus would like that.

    I'm surprised hotels don't have "We have room at our inn" promotions.

    As for me I celebrate the continually begotten of the only begotten. Let the Christ be born anew in you today. Allow the Christmind be in your mind.

    And eggnog milkshakes.
     
  8. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator

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    I savor two weeks off from school over the holidays by spending time with family (including a Catholic mass), attempting to ice skate, and sleeping.
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think the April birth is supported any more? I'm not sure of the reasoning for it?

    Of course, no-one knows the birth date for sure.

    The earliest reference to 25 December is Hippolytus of Rome, early 3rd century.

    He worked on the basis that there would have been a link between Jesus' birth and His death. This sits within a cyclic view of time, both Hebrew and Greek, and the idea that His life on earth would be set out in complete years, from conception to death. The idea therefore that Christ was conceived at the same time of year as His death, so His birth would be nine months on from Easter.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Hippolytus calculation was derived 9 months from spring equinox.

    If one believes in a virgin birth of G!D's child and all the other miracles I sure wouldn't know what a human 9 month gestation would apply in any way to the equation.

    But you are correct, with the Shepard's tending flocks and the census being taken and Johns birth the current thought appears to be September or early October.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Interestingly, I found this:

    "This article argues that around 235 ce Hippolytus of Rome placed the birth of Jesus on December 25. While this has been theorized in the past, this article brings forward hitherto unheralded evidence about Jesus’ birth from Hippolytus’ Canon and his Chronicon. First, the Canon marks the Passover as the γένεσις of Jesus, a word which scholars have previously thought refers to birth. This article however uses evidence from an extensive word study to show that the term most likely refers to conception, which would then place the birth of Jesus sometime in late fall or early winter. Secondly, the article shows that in his Chronicon Hippolytus placed Jesus’ birth exactly nine months after the anniversary of the world’s creation. Calculations in his Chronicon and Canon indicate that Hippolytus thought the world was created on March 25, meaning that he likely believed that Jesus was born on December 25."
    "Calculating December 25 as the Birth of Jesus in Hippolytus’ Canon and Chronicon", Vigiliae Christianae, Thomas C. Schmidt, Oct 2015, Volume 69: Issue 5)
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Well the current thought is no-one knows ... everyone has their pet theory.

    I go with Tradition for all the non-scientific reasons.
     
  13. Aussie Thoughts

    Aussie Thoughts Just my 2 cents

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    Been discussed here before, mate. Shared my thoughts in this thread a few years ago. https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/8411/page-4#post-310567

    As for my celebratory plans this year; in keeping with the past several, we'll decorate one of our stake bodies and run a load of native kids down to our local Catholic Mission. We're not Catholic nor they, but they have a nice Christmas pageant there every year for them and anyone else that cares to attend. It's become somewhat of a ritual for us and the kids really look forward to it.
     
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  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    That had me laughing...

    A date which is associated to an astrological calendar.
    Yup, September.

    The conjecture I recall is DEC 25 was to get those Christians that also celebrated the old pagan bacchanalian fest to toe the line.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Same place our tree, yule log, candle lighting, gift giving came from.
     
  16. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    You have to take into account their world view ...

    Astronomical, you mean.

    Yes, to the symbolist worldview, it all makes perfect sense. Christ enters the world around the time of the winter solstice; He is conceived in the springtime, around the equinox, and to complete that series of cycles, He departs the world around the equinox.

    The Sumerian goddess Inanna (Babylonian Ishtar, Canaanite Astarte, Greek Aphrodite and Roman Venus) is an atronomical/agrarian cycle deity in the celebration of life over death, light over darkness.

    The word 'Easter' comes from the Germanic celebration of Eostre, goddess of Spring (aka Ostara, Austra, and Eastre). As the bringer of light after a long dark winter, the goddess was often depicted with the hare, an animal that represents the arrival of spring as well as the fertility of the season.

    And of course the Jewish Passover.

    Nope, December. Conceived end March/early April

    Yeah, that was a popular web thing along with Constantine inventing Christianity, but scholars don't support it. Same with the Christ/Mithras thing ... a lot of it is made-up conjecture.

    Again, I'm saying no-one knows. But I do support the Dec 25 tradition because it fits nicely in that cyclic time worldview — if they were inventing a date (which they were) that's what they'd come up with. It ticks the atronomical/agrarian boxes when it comes to talk of renewal, death/resurrection, etc.

    So I buy it because it suits my mystical orientation ... it has meaning, and sits within an holistic in-awe-of-nature kind of thing.

    The contemporary date alternatives are boring, they don't fit anything astronomically, there's no shape, no pattern, no symbolism. There's no inherent beauty to the thing, like you get with a good theorem or formula.

    The honest answer is we don't know ... often I think people work hard to arrive at a non-Dec 25 date cos they're working an agenda.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    With this logic/belief G!d was quite earthcentric in his timing. Quite focused on the our revolution around the sun and our axis tilt.

    It begs the question...of unknowns of course.

    Was there, is there, will there be there a Christ (son of G!d/G!d incarnate) on every planet with salvation worthy life? You know in their image, whatever that intelligent life looks like preaching/teaching the good news to them?

    If so will we encounter aliens in heaven, or will they have their own heaven and hell.

    Beyond that...what about these whales and dolphins that communicate, have language and conversations is there a Flipper Christ, a Moby Christ...but wait we know trees communicate...and yoghurt....

    The omniscient, omnipresent one is busy..as are Jesus's brothers and sister's...
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    In the Christian Tradition there is the idea of two books: The first is the Book of Nature, the contemplation of nature leads us to make certain statements about the nature of God. The second is the Book of Scripture. As Galileo quoted Tertullian on that point: "We conclude that God is known first through Nature, and then again, more particularly, by doctrine; by Nature in His works, and by doctrine in His revealed word." (Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem, I, 18, quoted by Galileo in "Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina of Tuscany" 1615).

    Ooo-er ... speculation territory here ... who's to say?

    But surely, wherever and however a self-reflective intellect evolves, it must ask itself these same questions? And I go with philosophy on the principle that it is in the nature of the Good to communicate itself, and with theology that says where a being has the capacity to be open and receptive to that which transcends it, then the Transcendent will respond.
     
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  19. AlanT

    AlanT New Member

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    1. It's only in recent years that virgins have been able to give birth, so no virgin birth.
    2. It's not possible to navigate to a building using star navigation, so no wise men.
    3. Would an empire insist that for census purposes everyone must return to their ancestral town ... which could be a thousand miles away. Not practical.
     
  20. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    The whole thing is an overblown commercial racket, imo. Little children love it, but I'm only glad when it's over. So, do we agree?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019

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