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Discussion in 'Introductions' started by I Am, Jan 24, 2020.

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Do you think Neville Goddard was right?

  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I've been a heretic most my life. Both off the path and intentionally sarcastic and on the path, just deemed to be the wrong one by others.

    The biggest chuckle to me is when folks accuse me of cherry picking scripture as they cherry pick to prove me wrong.
     
  2. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    Like I said, these groups may feel that they are legitimate successors, but there is nothing explicit from the founder of the religion in writing that establishes this. Christ made a statement to Peter that on this rock I will build my church, but that partly refers to the faith that Peter had. Shoghi Effendi recognized that Peter was the prince of the apostles, but what his leadership consisted of is unclear. Peter himself had no problem apparently with James being the administrative head of the church. There is also nothing there that would indicate that what Peter, Paul, or anyone else said was to be understood as infallible. There is no provision for establishing successorship after Peter.

    In the case of Islam the Baha'is accept that Muhammad made verbal statements that Ali was to succeed in leadership, but nothing in writing which allowed the Muslims to pick someone else at first to be caliph. Abu Bakr was not definitely picked to be the successor, he was picked among the leadership of the Muslims. There was no agreed mechanism for picking the next caliph, this kept changing. Finally under the Umayyads it became hereditary. The Baha'is accept that Ali and his hereditary successors were authorative interpreters of the Qur'an, but I don't know where that came from anything that Muhammad said.
     
  3. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    The leadership at least of these covenant-breakers knew they were going against the covenant but they did it anyway. In the end it doesn't matter what their followers believe about their group, when the evidence is clear to any fair person that their covenant-breaker leadership was wrong.

    They are not heretics, they are covenant-breakers. We allow all Baha'is to have their differences. I don't care about the beliefs of the covenant-breakers, but they shouldn't try to take over leadership of the administration.
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Yes but the principle is the same as casting out heretics. It's the principle that somehow Baha'i is immune to the divisions within other religions? Never mind, it's not that important.

    It's just that you bought up the problem of divisions in Christianity, and someone pointed out that Baha'i may not be immune?
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    D'you think? Personally I don't think Jesus ever said, "You are my twelve, but it's OK for anyone to make anything of my teachings they choose", as so many assert these days.

    And there was a community — Luke 10:17 refers to the seventy two sent out. The twelve were like an inner circle, and of the twelve there were three who were closer still.

    So the Church of Christ is a Petrine church?

    Curious, but I can see that some would find it somewhat opaque.

    Was he? James was certainly ever-present in the temple at Jerusalem, but for Paul, James, Peter and John were the pillars of the church (Galatians 2:7).

    But nevertheless ...

    That we know of. But there was a hierarchy established among the twelve, and a model for the future.
     
  6. I Am

    I Am New Member

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    Yes, the deeper I looked into it, the weirder it got for me, too. I'm looking for more, whatever was before this.

    Anyone heard of Spirit Science on YouTube? The history of the human race or something it's called.
     
  7. I Am

    I Am New Member

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    I'm definitely out of my element as everyone on here is much more well-versed than me in the details and origins of many religions. However, does anyone ponder the beginning of existence and how it relates to spiritual matters? Apologies as I am trying to find my way around this forum, perhaps this should be posted elsewhere.
     
  8. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    I don't think that Jesus had to say that. Why can't people understand the teachings for themselves? The disciples understood Christ the best of those who were His followers since they were in constant contact with Him, but that doesn't mean that they had a monopoly on truth.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Do you mean how to reconcile God with science -- the big bang, etc? I see it as the mechanism: Oh, so that's how God did/does it! Of course not thinking of God as a person in the sky ...
     
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  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    "James was ever present in Jerusalem" Justice was ever present in the place of.peace.

    Pillars: Paul (restraint), James (justice), Peter (faith), John (love)
     
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  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    It is a vast ocean, you don't have to drink it all, just revel in it, ride the waves, swim around and when you tire relax on the beach. (I've been doing that for years here)
    The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.

    You can, interpret for you. If you are interpreting for others that is different
     
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  12. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Is that from somewhere, or your own interpretation?
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Links to the Unity metaphysical bible dictionary...and of course any baby naming book. Every Hebrew name had an underlying meaning. Most prominent you can find it biblically in the naming of cities, or the twelve tribes.

    In unity we describe the disciples as the 12 powers, the twelve traits that Jesus chose to surround himself with...as should we.

    It is interesting to look at who he brought where with him...love and faith were oft companions...for good reason eh?
     
  14. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Don't mind us, we're all just trying to make sense of things. Some of us may be getting more out of the sense-making than others.

    Regarding origins of existence: I can't remember any time when I wasn't here. This may mean I have no beginning in any spiritual sense. Your Mileage May Vary on this one, though :)
     
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  15. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    (I posted questions about the Baha'i Covenant in the Baha'i section of the forum)
     
  16. I Am

    I Am New Member

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    Yes, reconcile but I don't think we are anywhere near able to see far enough out into space or small enough under microscopes to understand how all this is happening or came to happen. We may never be able to because it's like an infinity mirror, endless loops. That's the kind of perspective I am trying to look from.
     
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  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Makes sense, knowing you.

    LOL, I get what you mean. I'm just laughing cos only you would present etymology that way!

    Yeah, we have a strong element of that, too.

    Hans Urs von Balthasar (20th century theologian) speaks of the 'larger unity' of the Church as corresponding to the 'constellation' of people around Jesus in the New Testament. As you've alluded to, there is the idea that everyone named in Scripture has literal, analogical and angogical dimension.

    We've spoken elsewhere about the Trinity and the 'psychological analogy' of memory, intellect and will.

    In this, James is symbolic of memory — in the NT he represents (Hebrew) tradition and law (Torah). He is the leader of the Jewish-Christian Jerusalem community (the Church of the circumcision), and takes Peter’s place after he leaves Jerusalem (Acts 12:17). He represents continuity between the Old and New Covenants. James mediated between the Jews and the Gentiles at the first Council of Jerusalem. Ideally, Christianity should have remained closely aligned to its Hebrew roots as a preservative against the essential message becoming lost among in the dualism and gnosticisms of the pagan world.

    John and Peter signify the intellect and the will respectively, and this relationship sheds light on the account of the race to the empty tomb in Luke, which I've discussed here before.

    Oh yeah! And again, at the Transfiguration and other pivotal moments, it's Peter James and John that Jesus took with Him.

    Von Balthasar explores these archetypes in necessary elements in the fabric of the Church and the Community as a whole.
     
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  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    We were so much younger then, we are older than that now.

    I don't believe either of us of substantially changed our beliefs, yet our beliefs have gotten more similar overtime. IDK how that makes any sense.
     
  19. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    @Trutthseeker9 - there are actually many reports of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) appointing 'Ali as his successor - even before large assemblies of Muslims.

    The largest assembly where this was done was in 632 at a place called Ghadir Khumm - an oasis where The Prophet with a large group of Muslims stopped while returning to Madinah from Mecca after performing Hajj. The Prophet addressed the Community, wherein he said :

    “He of whom I am the Mawla (Master) of him ‘Ali is also the Mawla (Master). O Allah be the friend of him who is his friend, and be the enemy of him who is his enemy.”

    Most of these sayings are found as acceptable only in hadith collections & historical writings of the Shi'a, but a few show up in Sunni texts - such as :

    Before a gathering of Muslims The Prophet stood with ''Ali and said

    "This is my brother, my executor and my successor among you. Listen to him and obey him."

    (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul-Allah)
     
  20. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Member

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    I hadn't seen that before. I thought that all references to the successorship of Ali were in Shi'a hadith
     

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