Theory, you, I, life is perfect.

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by KnowSelf, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    If that is the OP's point, I reject it.
     
  2. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    I dont follow what you mean xD

    but I meant "Past actions have consequences in the present and future. This is the underlying principle by which we measure reality in our daily lives." :) As in, I just wrote this in the present, now it will be posted and will be of the past, it will be a past action.

    I just answered that in the post above :) If you eat poison, you're gonna get hurt. These are biological laws. Biological laws need to exist in order for biology to function. That doesnt mean 'let people just die.' On the contrary, it means 'help them, they have made a mistake and eaten poison.' This further verifies life is a perfect system, because people experience suffering and others help (scientifically proven through the Mirroir Neurons discovery of the 90's.) Just like the body heals itself, a wounded person is healed by a lively person. This is going on all around the world, by doctors who work on humans and lower animals. That does not mean that the laws of biology are broken; a human or animal can be cured if the damage made is not fatal. If the animal needs to die because the damage is too much, it will die. Thus, a perfect system because everything that needs to happen happens. In fact, many people automatically faint when they experience a trauma to big (self protective measurements; this is the self referential system of consciousness, self creating, self destroying, self manifesting, self sustaining, boundless, free, beyond pleasure or suffering, not ultimately conditioned by these.)
     
  3. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    You to rej
    You seem to reject or make negative comments on every thing I post, Feel free to be original not a follower
     
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Very efficient. Almost industrial. Ffs.

    I think I know what you are all referring to, but for goodness sake, can't you find words that sound less like "war is peace"? I'm no fan of Hitchens', but I think it was this ... callousness he was criticising, and in this I think he is pointing out something deeply troublesome in spiritual discourse.

    You are not really proposing to say to an abusive murdering robber baron warlord, "How perfect and sublime an abusive murdering robber baron warlord! Please carry on, you are doing and non-doing just fine, true manifestation of the laws of the universe that you are!", right?
     
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  5. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    @Cino

    Efficient and industrial...very much so. Is there anything more efficient and industrial than seed pods? Packets of seeds, each seed in its own specific place in line, all top quality and ready for germination.

    Right. But no one said that though. War is peace? xD nono, this is a whole other line of logic. No one is saying that the Titanic deserved to sink, merley that it was because of various faults born our of various roots on the part of various parties and various factors (high speeds, a fatal wrong turn, cut costs, weather conditions, a dismissed key iceberg warning and lack of binoculars and lifeboats) that all these contributed to an unfortunate event. It shouldnt have happened, but based on bad passed actions bad consequences insued. This is a 'fatal mistake.'

    Abusive war mongering Pirate :))) is contrary to natural law, contrary to the perfection we speak of. He acts against his own well being and the well being of others, and reaps the consequences (thus, we see its a perfect system, cause the bad actions yield bad results, the good yield good results, this alone is verifiable in this life...also verifiable in heavenly realms)

    ♡♡♡
     
  6. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    I find that rather hard to believe. In the time since you've joined the forum you posted 480+ times. During that same time period I've posted less than 60 times. Now, if for some reason you continue to believe that somehow I have some sort of animus toward you, I would welcome the opportunity to clear the air, via private messaging.

    You, however, will have to initiate the conversation because you have blocked access to you off the public forum.
     
  7. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    @Beautiful So the challenge is to fit misfortune in with the universal perfection you propose, and to do so in a way that does not sound like "your misfortune is good" (or worse, "it's your own fault, you messed up in a previous life you don't even remember"). An exercise in compassion, maybe. Right speech. Pick your choice.

    Doesn't the necessity of spending time and effort on compassionate action make you suspicious that maybe not all is well in the universe?
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Sadly doesn't fit with my paradigm.

    OK, that's the rosey view.

    What about Dr Shipmans who simply bumped off the old when they became tiresome? The children who suffer years of abuse and are traumatised so much they go on to become abusers and perpetuate the problem? Or the children of Pol Pot who were suffocating the Cambodian middle classes with blue plastic bags? The Final Solution? Where do these figure in the perfect world?
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Here is the fundamental flaw in the argument.

    You have declared we have no comparable data to make any meaningful observation, be it positive or negative.

    It's a statement of faith, that 'all's for the best in the best of all possible worlds'.
     
  10. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    Hypothetically the left side is the past, the right side is the present. If sever one side from the other, past | present. the past does not condition the present they are no longer connected. A moment in time severed from the past is valued by its merit alone. The past is not able to influence the present because they are not connected. The future has no merit at all because it is neither past or present. Talking about a single perfect moment.
     
  11. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I agree that in our experience, it is always "now". We experience memories now, we experience future predictions now. This is an easy enough observation to make and verify experientially, empirically. Emotionally, it can be enormously liberating to realize this freedom from the past. Spiritually, it is a glimpse at Truth with a T, but a very poignant one, as @RabbiO and @Thomas and yours truly all pointed out in this thread.

    Blind men groping at pachyderms. You got the loving embrace of the trunk. I'm at the other end, wondering what I stepped in.
     
  12. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    Well from certain Hindu perspectives, past lives shape who we are today, thereby influencing current and future events.
     
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  13. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    War Also is a factor of life, at times necessary to save the way of life for a society or country. Why are you shying of it?
    I do not know what Hitchens or anybody else said about it. Also, being an atheist, do not know about heavenly realms.
    KnowSelf, all are connected. Past/Present and Future. Because I did not study well in my youth, I did not earn much in life, and I cannot visit your beautiful country (whichever it is - they are all beautiful) for a vacation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  14. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    That's a reference to "Newspeak", and the George Orwell school of nondualism where universal love emanates from Big Brother. Nothing to do with Hitchens beyond his critique of this aspect of spiritual discourse.
     
  15. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    In the story of Siddhartha, (www.librivox.org) Siddhartha, now an old man, a wise man self taught in the ways of the world, states every moment is perfect. Think of the world and things that belong to world. Birth, ageing, health, sickness and death must happen in order for the world create, populate and destroy for the world to continue being the world.

    Several comments within this thread suggest life is not perfect, however, you are thinking with your emotions rather than the purpose of life, death and the world. The world is like a machine that performs specific duties similar to a computer program. The computer, like this world does not have emotional ties to its inhabitants, therefore in times of illness and death God, the world, life, etc. determines the course of action to take for the world to continue life and death.

    I say life is perfect even though we don't understand the full meaning and purpose of life . Life is perfect.
     
  16. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Is imperfection simply a human delusion then ? Is there no reality or purpose with imperfection ?
     
  17. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    I believe you are correct "Imperfection is a human perception, nothing more
     
  18. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    I agree to an extent. It's a human thing. But then, animals also perceive imperfections.

    If however the corollary is that a simple change in perception will make the imperfections (what a genteel word for the atrocities and tragedies implied by it) go away, then I strongly disagree.
     
  19. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Are you referring to Hesse's Siddharta? A good book! Despite the title, and the plot, I feel that the ferryman is the main protagonist.
     
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  20. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    The Hindu non-dualism (mine, for example) is completely neutral. No love, no hate. All that belongs to the lower level of reality, i.e., Pragmatic (Vyavaharika), and not the absolute level of reality (Paramarthika).
    Yeah, perfection or imperfection, as KnowSelf said, is only our perception.
     
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