Police shooting at reporters

Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Cino, May 31, 2020.

  1. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    [I'm sorry for all the climate change in this topic, I'm using this as an example about information as a whole. What I write can be applied on topics as racism and fascism, I'm just not as familiar with them as with this]

    I think you see a much clearer distinction between misinformation and and non-misinformation (yes, I know that's not accurate but I want to avoid some traps here). As with climate-denial, you can say a lot of things about it that isn't untrue, it's just not relevant or just wrong for very obscure reasons. They can muddy the water enough for them to be not-wrong. I can't stress enough how wide and deep climate research is. A skilled debater can talk circles around me because I don't have near the expertise to meet all their arguments. Even very popular proponents of climate change research like Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson get criticism from the field because they sometimes misrepresent certain facts. Which is natural since neither of them has all the degrees needed and they also have to simplify things for a larger audience.

    But I love this conversation Corbet and would like it to go on, and if you do watch some of the videos I think we will have much more to agree and disagree on!
     
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  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Rogan allows everyone their view. If you want my true opinion, having watched the videos, I find their emphasis on Nazism as a justification for disallowing freedom of expression to be quite distressing.

    There is a heavy emphasis on Nazism. Unfortunately whenever Nazism is bought into a discussion as a justification, it is usually a bit desperate, imo. If we allow Joe Rogan to go on, we'll soon end up in a Nazi state, etc.

    In fact the liberal left is often -- even usually -- far more intolerant of contra opinions than anyone else, imo -- and whipping out the Nazi card is, as I said, really just a bit sad and desperate as an attempt to stifle opinions that are not in line.

    It's Animal Farm, I'm afraid ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Ok. I'm enjoying it too.

    I'm really not a Neil deGrasse Tyson fan. I think a person becomes less not more informed by listening to Neil deGT. However, that aside: the drift is that most people, and in this case most university students, are mostly easily taken in by Facebook type instant, shallow and fake information?

    And therefore the information they are allowed to access should effectively be censored and filtered by a superior body? Like a monastery? I find this distressing in the case of university students, who are supposed to be open to consider all sorts ideas and encouraged to their own reasearch and fact checking?
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    But perhaps the fear of Nazi resurgence is a lot more real in Sweden and Germany than -- realistically -- in the US and the UK?
     
  5. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Where did I say that I will condone killing of peaceful protestors. But rioting protestors are something else. If the protestors are indulging in things that I mentioned in my post, then they are not protestors, they are enemies of the nation. And it will be perfectly OK to kill them. I do not think you may have any experience like a riot in India.
     
  6. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator

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    Yeah, this is still problematic for me. And since this thread has gone around a bit, let me clarify my stance. Violence should be the last resort. If the officers are on the verge of being killed, then I understand where shooting at the protestors may be needed. But such situations are always fraught with issues and second guessing.

    To me there is a very large divide between peaceful protestors, violent protestors, and terrorists/enemies of the state. I’m not condoning violence and don’t believe protestors should be setting fires or throwing stones at the police. But as harmful as stones can be, they’re less harmful than bullets. There are weapons to divert rioting crowds without using real bullets.

    I’ve spent the last couple hours reading up on protests and crowd violence in India. It is incredibly intense and frequent. I recognize that. And I am thankful I’m not in the position of those or other police officers. I don’t envy them their jobs and the responsibilities that go with it.

    At the end of the day, some of us here may believe that deadly force is justified in more situations than others find acceptable. Like so many things here, we will disagree. But statements such as “it will be perfectly OK to kill them” are not acceptable on the forum.
     
  7. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    I always (try to) go by forum rules. So, agree to what you said,
    The police response in India surprises me. If the protestors are throwing stones, the policemen many a times throw back the stones at the protestors. In this 21st Century, I find it very funny. It becomes a stone-throwing contest between the protestors and police. Rubber bullets for example, but I hear that even rubber bullets can cause injuries. We were using pallets in Kashmir, but the Supreme Court objected to it, and their use has been stopped. Tear Gas is not that effective. People congregate at points where there is no gas. Water cannon cannot be available at all places at all times.

    [​IMG] Protestors
    [​IMG] Police
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2020
  8. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I haven't been able to parse this yet and if I do I'll reply to in the thread Steve opened.

    This has left me confused the last two days. I see where you're coming from with the use of Nazism as a nuclear option in comment sections, but comparing that to deeper analysis of ideological mechanism seems...dismissive? Naive? I have two points:

    1. These videos were not made in a vacuum, they were made following the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville 2017. I'm sure you are familiar but I'll link a wiki page and a picture from the rally.

    Unite the Right rally wikipedia page


    [​IMG]

    2. The general concern expressed in those videos was not that the us will elect Hitler as the new president and add a swastika to the American flag. But the normalisation of fascist ideology and the election of a strong-man leader who would undermine the trust in democracy, the trust in the media and suppress peaceful protests through violence.

    It's not my attempt to politicise this further, but I don't know how to walk around this one, it's all a bit too relevant.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Ok. Please don't think I am being dismissive.
     
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  10. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I am sceptical of no-platforming at universities, except for hate speech or misinformation and it is common to hear say, Israel described as a Nazi state. Pro-Israel speakers are not allowed to speak at most universities these days.

    I have even heard the Nazi card pulled against You Tube: 'You Tube censorship is just like Nazi Germany' etc.

    The fact is all the videos you posted were about Nazism, and even the link you posted re Joe Rogan seemed to reason his podcasts might increase alt-right support -- the implication being ... what exactly?
    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/59ade5/inside-youtubes-alt-media-ecosystem

    But yes, let's move further discussion over to Steve's thread.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    The other day saw a video of a rioter putting the clothes of a policeman on fire by pouring petrol and lighting it (Mexico). They remember only their rights and not their obligations. Such a person will induce others to indulge in lawless acts. I would not have felt any remorse if this person was shot dead. I believe in going by the law. Of course, the Minneapolis policemen also did not remember their duty and should be punished for that. I would not be one to condone their act.

     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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